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  • 20-04-2006 7:42pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,639 ✭✭✭


    Ok, QQ and JJ are absolutely killing me at the moment. While the hand below might qualify as a bad beat I'm posting it in the hope that I can get some advice on how I should have played it.

    Should I have re-raised preflop? Bet rather than check and Raise less on the flop and then folded to the re-raise??

    Full Tilt Poker Game #580860063: Table Revere - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:19:27 ET - 2006/04/20
    Seat 1: vandy20 ($133.40)
    Seat 2: raylapsley ($203.25)
    Seat 3: Polka94 ($294.05)
    Seat 4: PoketJockers ($162.50)
    Seat 5: KGB2212 ($200)
    Seat 6: WOLF_SPIRIT ($202.35)
    Seat 7: golly ($204)
    Seat 8: BOOSHIFIED ($198)
    Seat 9: uncyoshi ($185.95)
    golly posts the small blind of $1
    BOOSHIFIED posts the big blind of $2
    The button is in seat #6
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to golly [Jc Js]
    uncyoshi folds
    vandy20 folds
    raylapsley folds
    Polka94 folds
    PoketJockers folds
    KGB2212 raises to $4
    WOLF_SPIRIT folds
    golly calls $3
    BOOSHIFIED raises to $16
    KGB2212 folds
    golly calls $12
    *** FLOP ***
    golly checks
    BOOSHIFIED bets $20
    golly raises to $96
    BOOSHIFIED raises to $182, and is all in
    golly calls $86
    BOOSHIFIED shows [Ad Ks]
    golly shows [Jc Js]
    *** TURN *** [Qh]
    BOOSHIFIED: nh
    *** RIVER *** [2s]
    BOOSHIFIED shows a straight, Ace high
    golly shows three of a kind, Jacks
    BOOSHIFIED wins the pot ($397) with a straight, Ace high
    golly adds $194
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $400 | Rake $3
    Board:
    Seat 1: vandy20 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 2: raylapsley didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 3: Polka94 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 4: PoketJockers didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 5: KGB2212 folded before the Flop
    Seat 6: WOLF_SPIRIT (button) didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 7: golly (small blind) showed [Jc Js] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks
    Seat 8: BOOSHIFIED (big blind) showed [Ad Ks] and won ($397) with a straight, Ace high
    Seat 9: uncyoshi didn't bet (folded)


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭Poker & Pints


    I think your call preflop to the first raise was a little weak. I would have reraised most times.

    Post flop I would have done one of two things: Either rasie allin to the villains bet or just call the bet. If you raise allin hopefully you get him off that hand, if not the outcome remains the same. The flop is dangerous as it is...you know a lot of guys will play and raise KQ suited or even unsuited. So the staright could already have been made. By calling you limit your exposure to the straight. When the turn comes I suspect the guy either shoves allin or checks in the hope of checkraising(thinking you might have hit a smaller staright)....Then you may get a free card for the FH...but you don;t lose as much.

    Again IMHO. I would like to see what others think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭pok3rplaya


    This is a bad beat


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,639 ✭✭✭Iago


    pok3rplaya wrote:
    This is a bad beat

    Well yes and then no.

    At no point was I better than a 52% favourite at the pot, so I think it was an outdraw more than a bad beat. What I'm more concerned with is how I played the hand, I think I should have lost less money than I did.

    Here's my thinking, so you can all point out the flaws!

    When it was initially raised, I figured I could well have the best hand. If I flat call the BB might come along and then I can check raise a good flop to entice a continuation bet before raising and taking it down. If I raise, the BB folds and either the initial raiser folds or he pops it again and then what do I do. How often is a 3 bet here not AA-QQ? If he simply calls then I'm hoping for a flop with no A/K/Q/T/9 on it, because his range is probably AA-99 and AK-AQ.

    If I call then I limit my exposure...allegedly!

    When the BB re-raises and the initial raiser folds, I can't find a re-raise here. Sure he could be chancing his arm but do I want to commit a significant portion of my stack to find that out? I thought a flat call here was best, and then evaluate post flop.

    The flop is a nightmare, I've hit top set on a horrible board. I was going to bet at this but what would I gain, if he flat calls and any diamond Q/K/A lands on the turn I've no idea where I am. If he re-raises then what do I do? Is he bluffing me on this flop?

    I figured checking was better, he still has no idea what I'm holding. He will bet here with AJ/QQ/KK/AA and maybe AK. Will he bet with the made flush? I don't think so, given that he would have the nut flush I think he checks and gives me a free card.

    So when he bets I figure he's holding a hand I completely dominate or on a draw that I'm 50/50 or better against, I might be able to take him off a draw with a big enough raise. When he pushes it's an autocall, and even though I think I'm still ahead I'm wondering why it is I let myself get stacked in this hand.

    If I just call his bet and a scare card lands on the turn I have to fold, even if I'm ahead and he's chancing his arm. How often do you think he's just continuation betting on this flop? Or will call with a hand that I beat?

    So in terms of decison points what do you do

    1. The initial raise, do you call or re-raise, and why?

    2. When the BB re-raises do you call, re-raise or fold and why?

    3. Bet the pot or check post flop?

    4. following his bet do you call or raise? why?


    I accept that these are probably elementary decisions, but as I said two of my worst hands on PT are QQ and JJ. I seem to get stacked more often than not and when I win I'm not getting the same returns back. In the last 3 weeks at a combination of .50/$1 and $1/$2 I'm down over $1K on QQ and JJ alone.

    QQ has lost $600 when up against KK (2) and AA
    JJ has lost me over $400 including $200 in the hand in question here


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Ardent


    I don't think you did anything wrong here. You were ahead and you got all his money in the middle after the flop. You just got outdrawn here, hard luck.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,476 ✭✭✭Samba


    Im not sure if re-raising PF is correct with this type of donkey, I think he may well come back over the top, he seems to think AK is the nuts, no matter wha the flop.

    There is only one way I would have gotten away from this hand, if I pegged him for QK.

    I might just have folded to his flop bet, he is showing major strenghth on this quite scary flop.

    Good call and vul Iago, reload, you did little or nothing wrong imo.

    Edit - just re-read HH you had almost half your chips in, even if he has the straight, you are almost priced in to fill up.


    Iago, do a forum search and have a look at the vast number of moan threads i posted about QQ/JJ, these days I play very cautiously with these hands, they have cost me a lot of money in the past and I tend to play relatively passive with them.

    I went through a rough patch of about 4 months where every time I re-raised PF with QQ, i was being re-raised huge, or all in, I would fold and get flashed AA/KK..... They are both very strong starting hands but you do need to tread carefully with them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 555 ✭✭✭fixer


    "So when he bets I figure he's holding a hand I completely dominate or on a draw that I'm 50/50 or better against, I might be able to take him off a draw with a big enough raise."

    I often think like this online, and it's what often kills me. Don't assume you can take these guys off any pots, especially when they lead out betting.

    call the 20 and see what the turn brings.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭pok3rplaya


    Iago wrote:
    Well yes and then no.

    What I really ment was considering the villan reraised OOP preflop (ie. repping a monster) don't ever fold the flop.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭FastMachine


    This hand is fine, you just lost a coinflip. I don't like the idea of reraising preflop oop with QQ or JJ. Unless I'm making a move and looking to take the pot down on the flop I'll just call.

    OOP position with QQ and JJ is all about minizing loss for me, except against a fish. Try and find out as early as possible if you're beat, sometimes just give it up if the board is particlarly unfriendly. You generally shouldn't be looking to stack somebody oop with these hands, you should be looking to avoid being stacked yoursef.

    Depending on the frequency of your opponent's preflop raises you should have a rough idea of what range you're up against and based on his style how much action you are willing to take.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Hectorjelly


    no harm in folding preflop to the reraise


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭pok3rplaya


    no harm in folding preflop to the reraise

    It's kinda close alright but I think calling is good. You're last to act PF, BOOSHIFTED has $182 left, he's excited about his hand and you have to pay $12 for the privilage of setting up. I think its profitable.


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