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The Nature of a Ghost Hunt

  • 20-04-2006 02:39PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭


    I've been thinking lately. Too much. As usual.

    And something has occured to me. The phenomenon of ghosts is incredibly hard to research. Even if you take it at complete face value that a ghost is the intelligent mind of a dead human being who continues to exist, its near impossible to prove.


    For one, theres the very natue of a ghost. Lets say for now that a ghost is some or all of a dead person's personality that has survived death. Whether they exist as some form of energy, or in some form science has yet to indentify, we don't know. But either way, they don't have a physical body, thats inescapable. Which leads to an unusual situation. You've got a person, or something a bit like a person, who dosn't have a body, and so must find other ways at their disposal to interact with the world. And if they exist in a way science doesn't understand, then they communicate in a way science doesn't understand. Which has obvious problems.

    But I think the biggest problem is if there really are dead people that still think, they're unlikely to think like living people. They don't have a brain. They have whatever it is they have, but its not a brain. This could be why ghosts seem to behave in such a strange way. Why they're inconsistent, and often confused. They couldn't see time and space the way we do. Hence, a ghost hunter could ask for a knock, and get one. But a scientist will want a knock twenty times, on demand to prove that there is something intelligent behind it, but it may not be intelligent as we understand it. But it still thinks its a person.

    So you get something that wants to be treated like a person, but doesn't act like a person, and is beyond the understanding of modern science.

    Very troublesome. It may be that ghosts are beyond our capacity to prove until we develop technology and methodology that deal in whatever the nature of a ghost is.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    I think of ghosts like photographs or a video clip, an image or carbon copy of something or somebody taken at a specific time and contains all the details captured in that moment. A little more than that, it preserves the energy of who that person was, hence the sensations or strong emotions associated with hauntings. As for interaction, we can be affected or influenced by many kinds of energy distortions, why not ghostly energy patterns.

    That said, I think there's lot of different kinds of frequency's out there and not just the video clip/photograph type of spirit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    But what you're describing as energy isn't really energy. Emotions aren't a form of energy, thats chemicals and electricty in our brains. If we're getting into mana or quintessence or whatever, thats fine, but its not "energy" as we know it.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Non scientific opinion is all I can give. Dunno about ghosts, all I can refer to is spirit communication. Whatever way their non brain works, they seem to attempt to communicate in a way the recipient can understand, using images sounds etc relevant to them. To you would information provided this way consitute proof? Say if it was something verifiable?

    Tho I have a sneaky feeling those on the other side want us mortals to live in a world of faith rather than knowledge for another while yet.:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah wrote:
    Emotions aren't a form of energy, thats chemicals and electricty in our brains.
    you feeling silly today? Aren't these chemicals and electricity a form of energy.

    sure emotions are energy, maybe those emotions are the result of a chemical reaction but they are energy nonetheless. Once that energy has been "created" it acts or reacts with its environment.
    zillah wrote:
    If we're getting into mana or quintessence or whatever, thats fine, but its not "energy" as we know it.
    conveniently, either are ghosts.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Good post Zillah, that really is a problem. Because we don't really have a scientific basis for what constitutes a ghost, we're really confined to looking for side-effects of ghosts opposed to the ghosts themselves. I see things like cold spots in particular, but also shadows or orbs on photos, EMF readings, EVP etc as being more indicative of the presence of a ghost or energy than direct evidence of a ghost itself. This unfortunatly means that we have to also rely on subjective evidence a lot, which is really only any good if you experience it yourself.

    Also as solas points out some/many/all (depending on your point of view) 'ghosts' are thought to not be intelligent spirits, but more of an imprint or recording of energies in a place of a particular time. I know one of the times in the dungeon in Charleville last weekend I felt that we were witnessing a recording of an event, not actually in the pressence of spirits, altough I don't really have any strong reason for that.

    The idea of what type of intelligence ghosts would have is extremely interesting, but very hard to actually think about. So much of how we think is based on our physical bodies, our brain structure and chemistry and instincts and so much of how we percieve things is based on our physical senses that I can't even begin to conceive what it must be like. This is where a lot of the major religions fall apart for me, describing God and the afterlife in terms that only make sense if you have a physical human-form body. I once thought about blindfolding myself for a week to see what it would be like to be blind, but I think that would only be a miniscule change in perception compared to what a spirit would percieve.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    sure emotions are energy, maybe those emotions are the result of a chemical reaction but they are energy nonetheless.

    Its kind of complicated. Your brain is essentially a big blob of electrical goo. Its an incredibly complex and fantastic blob of electic goo however. Each time you feel an emotion, thats electricity whirring around in your brain and chemicals moving around your body. But then those chemicals get turned into other chemicals and that energy gets turned into other energy. Its only an emotion within the context of the whole system of the brain.

    In the same way you can say a government is formed from politicians, its still not accurate to call a government a type of polictician.

    EDIT:
    KatieK wrote:
    Dunno about ghosts, all I can refer to is spirit communication. Whatever way their non brain works, they seem to attempt to communicate in a way the recipient can understand, using images sounds etc relevant to them. To you would information provided this way consitute proof? Say if it was something verifiable?

    Oh yeah, definately. A scientist would require extremely good accuracy, and consistency, but its not out of the question at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zilah wrote:
    Its only an emotion within the context of the whole system of the brain.
    until it becomes external and others become the recipient of that energy and so starts another chain reaction. Take for example someone who is angry and shouting at people. It's no longer just a chemical reaction within the context of their brain, it a very real and powerful (and often dangerous) means of communication.

    on the topic at hand aren't you discussing the nature of ghosts, something which for all intents and purposes you yourself have described as "and is beyond the understanding of modern science."


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Zillah wrote:
    Oh yeah, definately. A scientist would require extremely good accuracy, and consistency, but its not out of the question at all.
    That tends to be a problem, and some would say cop out, because in my experience 'they' dont perform on cue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    like I can feel your emotions right now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    solas wrote:
    on the topic at hand aren't you discussing the nature of ghosts, something which for all intents and purposes you yourself have described as "and is beyond the understanding of modern science."

    Exactly, if ghosts are simply "energy" then they should be as mesurable as any other kind of energy, which they aren't.
    until it becomes external and others become the recipient of that energy and so starts another chain reaction. Take for example someone who is angry and shouting at people. It's no longer just a chemical reaction within the context of their brain, it a very real and powerful (and often dangerous) means of communication.

    When you start shouting, thats energy from your muscles making the air vibrate, it has nothing to do with the energy in your brain. And then the energy from the vibrating air hits their ears and ends there. Again, the emotion only exists inside the context of your brain, as far as science is concerned. And energy is a science word.
    KatieK wrote:
    That tends to be a problem, and some would say cop out, because in my experience 'they' dont perform on cue.

    Lets say the experiment was along the lines of Qs and As. With an experiment I'd design, you wouldn't have to answer every question, but when you did provide an answer, it needs to be right. If we only counted the right answers then it wouldn't be a very good experiment.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    So when someone is shouting at you and you feel it like a punch to the solar plexus, is that your energy or chemicals, or emotion or what? Cos ghosts affect us on the same level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    Exactly, if ghosts are simply "energy" then they should be as mesurable as any other kind of energy, which they aren't.
    what about emf readings and infa red and stilled photography?
    When you start shouting, thats energy from your muscles making the air vibrate, it has nothing to do with the energy in your brain. And then the energy from the vibrating air hits their ears and ends there. Again, the emotion only exists inside the context of your brain, as far as science is concerned. And energy is a science word.
    if you say so zillah. I'm very empathic so I can feel how your feeling, maybe I'm just perceiving the reactions within your brain. Wonder how that works.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    KatieK wrote:
    So when someone is shouting at you and you feel it like a punch to the solar plexus, is that your energy or chemicals, or emotion or what? Cos ghosts affect us on the same level.

    Although im not too sure what you're talking about, its likely that any physical reaction you feel after being shouted at is a result of your own brain's reaction to it. Rather than something they've done to you.

    solas wrote:
    what about emf readings and infa red and stilled photography?

    Im not sure, thats kind of the topic Im bringing up here. Obviously ghosts interact with the world as we know it on some level, otherwise we'd never notice anything.
    if you say so zillah. I'm very empathic so I can feel how your feeling, maybe I'm just perceiving the reactions within your brain. Wonder how that works.

    What am I feeling exactly?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah wrote:
    What am I feeling exactly?
    much prefer if you expressed that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Em, the only reason my emotional state is relevant is because you've said you can sense it. Im quite curious to see if you're correct. Why would you bring it up at all if you don't want to discuss it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah wrote:
    Im quite curious to see if you're correct.
    of course you are. If I said how you feel (toward me) you would deny it or rationalise it as chemical reactions in my brain.
    Why would you bring it up at all if you don't want to discuss it?
    because its about as possible to prove as "ghosts", which are really nothing more than the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    solas wrote:
    of course you are. If I said how you feel (toward me) you would deny it or rationalise it as chemical reactions in my brain.

    Solas what are you talking about? If you think I have something against you for some reason, I don't.
    because its about as possible to prove as "ghosts", which are really nothing more than the same.

    Not really. If you can sense my emotions then you could say that im feeling "happy" or "sad" or "confused" or whatever. And it'd either be right or wrong. If you don't want to discuss your empathic abilities then don't bring it up, especially in relation to me. I don't mean that as a challenge or anything, it just makes sense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    zillah wrote:
    Solas what are you talking about? If you think I have something against you for some reason, I don't.
    untrue.
    If you don't want to discuss your empathic abilities then don't bring it up, especially in relation to me.
    this isn't about my empathic abilities, the discussion as you have stated earlier is in relation to the very nature of ghosts and spirits, If I can sense your spirit, wouldn't it suggest that the sum of all these chemical reactions is an energy undefined by science?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Solas, do you seriously expect me to continue to discuss things with you while you insist on claiming I have something against you?

    For the record, I was in a remarkably good mood while I was posting, as I was also on MSN arranging dinner with a friend I havn't seen in a long time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    said you would deny it.
    It's not so much a case of belief anyway, you've made your feelings known on plenty of occasions in the past. I just sensed your annoyance and irritation in response to my first post in the thread, and in an effort to regain your sense of authority you seek out approval from other posters. (the I'm popular mentality)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    stevenmu wrote:
    Good post Zillah, that really is a problem. Because we don't really have a scientific basis for what constitutes a ghost, we're really confined to looking for side-effects of ghosts opposed to the ghosts themselves.

    Its an interesting point that we have to look for the symtoms rather than the source. Without a vast quantity of analysis and consistent evidence science can't accept the phenomenon, so I expect this may be a bit of a stand off until 2024 when the ecto-scanner is invented :)
    Also as solas points out some/many/all (depending on your point of view) 'ghosts' are thought to not be intelligent spirits, but more of an imprint or recording of energies in a place of a particular time. I know one of the times in the dungeon in Charleville last weekend I felt that we were witnessing a recording of an event, not actually in the pressence of spirits, altough I don't really have any strong reason for that.

    If that was the case then it makes the phenomenon all that much harder to prove. Hell, we might be dealing with stuff on the quantum scale here.
    The idea of what type of intelligence ghosts would have is extremely interesting, but very hard to actually think about. So much of how we think is based on our physical bodies, our brain structure and chemistry and instincts and so much of how we percieve things is based on our physical senses that I can't even begin to conceive what it must be like.

    But even with that in mind (hehe), its likely that if these echoes or whatever are capable of thought or self awareness of any kind, it would be fundamentally based on the person it came from, so like I said earlier, we have the conundrum of an entity that wants to be treated like a person, but doesn't act like one.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    I dont know about any issues between you two, but this in this place its very easy be misunderstood. The only emotion I sense from Zillah is a mild exasperation at times. But otherwise your a closed book and thats how you like it ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    KatieK wrote:
    But otherwise your a closed book and thats how you like it

    Now that I find to be an interesting thing to say... ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    see?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Are you drunk? Solas, aside from the obvious, nothing I've said has had anything to do with you. Frankly your interupting, just stop.

    I genuinely found that to be quite an interesting thing for Katie to say. Whether she's just picked it up over the last while on boards or whether a spirit guide told, I don't know, but she's spot on.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    I interested Zillah! Hooray... /goes off to throw party;)

    BTW, I dont do guides. Not red indian or otherwise. Just a sense, which Ive been trying to convince you of for 18 months...:-)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,999 ✭✭✭solas


    nope, not drunk, I'm fairly teetotal with the exception of parties and christmas.
    Frankly your interupting, just stop.
    thanks for expressing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    KatieK wrote:
    I interested Zillah! Hooray... /goes off to throw party;)
    BTW, I dont do guides. Not red indian or otherwise. Just a sense, which Ive been trying to convince you of for 18 months...:-)

    Hey hey, I said it was interesting, im not quite convinced you have psychic powers just yet :)


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Zillah wrote:
    Hey hey, I said it was interesting, im not quite convinced you have psychic powers just yet :)
    I know, Id want to tell you the colour of your underwear to convince you. But I like the 'yet'


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    Zillah wrote:
    Its kind of complicated. Your brain is essentially a big blob of electrical goo. Its an incredibly complex and fantastic blob of electic goo however. Each time you feel an emotion, thats electricity whirring around in your brain and chemicals moving around your body. But then those chemicals get turned into other chemicals and that energy gets turned into other energy. Its only an emotion within the context of the whole system of the brain.

    I'll refer you to the first law of thermodynamics, that states, in summation, Energy cannot be created or destroyed, just changed.

    Now, yes you are right, emotions are down to basic chemical interactions, however these interactions are down at their basest level to atom transfer and as a result energy transfer (and I'm talking at the physics level) to the point where the human brain creates a continuously oscillating EMF probably varying in the range of 5-100 Hz - I believe this is what solas may be referring to.

    To put it in the context of an esteem colleague, all biology is just chemistry, all chemistry is just physics (and all physics is just math).

    If you had sophisticated enough machinery, far faster than the current MRI and with a higher resolution that the alternative SQUIDS technology - that is something that could measure both the time and the spatial variation, you could probably start talking about emotions in quantitative energy terms


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