High Stakes Poker episode II

fuzzbox

Who says these guys can play ....

Doyle opens for 2600 UTG with red AA, the table comments that this is weird because its more than usual ... normally its 2400. Ted Forrest folds 9cTc next to act, young pro calls, Jerry Bus calls, and Barry Greinstein makes it 15000 with QQ, Doyle thinks, and moves in for 500,000, and its folded round to Greenstein who insta-calls for 80k more.

I dont know about you guys, but I fold QQ to that action. Yet Greenstein calls .... wtf?

TacT

If you put him on AK do you still fold? In episode I Doyle limp reraises all-in with AK from ep. I guess Barry was willing to take a gamble if he had AK and misread him. I fold too btw but that's the only explanation I can see for Barry's play.

JTheViper

Is it on tele at all or where are you watching it?

delanec8

fuzzbox wrote:

Who says these guys can play ....

Doyle opens for 2600 UTG with red AA, the table comments that this is weird because its more than usual ... normally its 2400. Ted Forrest folds 9cTc next to act, young pro calls, Jerry Bus calls, and Barry Greinstein makes it 15000 with QQ, Doyle thinks, and moves in for 500,000, and its folded round to Greenstein who insta-calls for 80k more.

I dont know about you guys, but I fold QQ to that action. Yet Greenstein calls .... wtf?

There was a lot of weird play throughout (biggest donkey play had to be hellmuth getting insurance off barry) but these guys play day in day out with each other so im sure barry had some reasoning behind it, had him on AK id say. Doyle could easily have AK here. He pushed in with less than $4000 to pick up in the pot earlier, with AK.

Samba

edit - what delanec8, said.

If it was a normal nights poker with no past history it is pretty shocking play.

Ollieboy

why is it shocking play?

If your letting the money here be the factor, ie 80,000, than your all wrong, Doyle could have AK, AQ or JJ even 1010 and you all would make the same play. The money here is not a factor as this is like a 2/4 game is us. These players would play with 250,000 buy-in most nights in the rooms in Vegas. I know the buy-in at this level is a minimum 250k with no max, so he was only risking 80k more after already putting 15k in the pot. I agree he could have got away from the hand, but I see very few players laying down QQ before the flop.

delanec8

Ollieboy wrote:

why is it shocking play?

If your letting the money here be the factor, ie 80,000, than your all wrong, Doyle could have AK, AQ or JJ even 1010 and you all would make the same play. The money here is not a factor as this is like a 2/4 game is us. These players would play with 250,000 buy-in most nights in the rooms in Vegas. I know the buy-in at this level is a minimum 250k with no max, so he was only risking 80k more after already putting 15k in the pot. I agree he could have got away from the hand, but I see very few players laying down QQ before the flop.

I dont think this is shocking play but under normal circumstances you have to respect your opponent for AA or KK in this case. I would say 80% of the time they have one of those hands, the other 20% being AK. I dont see Doyle or most others pushing here with AQ,JJ or TT (what hand that is worse than yours is going to call you). There wasnt many pushes preflop in this series but all of them (that i can remember anyway) involved a player with AA,KK or AK(once). Most of the play was postflop so i would imagine a lot of players would give Doyle credit for AA or KK and lay down the QQ. I really dont think it is that hard of a laydown.

TacT

Ollieboy wrote:

why is it shocking play?

because he's more likely doing it with KK/AA and getting set up by a showing of AK with the same kind of play previous to that, which as it turns out, he was.

DubTony

Surely this is trapping to the extreme. If Brunsons's done this with AK, he's set up the play for later when he draws a big pair. Greenstein's call can surely be seen as a trap as well, and he obviously feels he's ahead when Brunson overbets the pot. (Cos Doyle can do this with any 2 cards). Anyway, the money has very little to do with it. These fellahs just "lend" it to each other from one night to the next.

Ollieboy

DubTony wrote:

Surely this is trapping to the extreme. If Brunsons's done this with AK, he's set up the play for later when he draws a big pair. Greenstein's call can surely be seen as a trap as well, and he obviously feels he's ahead when Brunson overbets the pot. (Cos Doyle can do this with any 2 cards). Anyway, the money has very little to do with it. These fellahs just "lend" it to each other from one night to the next.

this is my point exactly, the money as no effect in this hand as the sums of money are massive to us, but not these players.

Also, Doyle is know for using the sqeez play move and he would be playing on this to get a call, Doyle can play any 2 cards from any position in a cash game and likes to put people to a decision, also, he was only risking 80k here and was forcing the other 2 players out of the hand, with all this going on, Green had every reason to believe he was ahead.

But I still agree he could have got away from this hand and if it had been a tourney he would have. I also think its easy to sit in your sitting room and see all the hold cards and players reaction and critise there play. I can bet any player on this forum would have made that call.

Mr. Flibble

I don't see why he'd fold here. Would you fold QQ if there were no callers up to you? Its possible but unlikely the young pro smooth called with KK, presumably Greenstein would have a feel for him tho. Its extremly unlikely Buss has AA or KK, so the only player he is really worrying about is Brunson. And if Doyle had AK then it would be great for Greenstein to get into a race with all the dead money in the pot.

We don't see enough hands to know what Doyle raises with, but I'd guess his raising range is more than AA KK utg.

delanec8

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I don't see why he'd fold here. Would you fold QQ if there were no callers up to you? Its possible but unlikely the young pro smooth called with KK, presumably Greenstein would have a feel for him tho. Its extremly unlikely Buss has AA or KK, so the only player he is really worrying about is Brunson. And if Doyle had AK then it would be great for Greenstein to get into a race with all the dead money in the pot.

We don't see enough hands to know what Doyle raises with, but I'd guess his raising range is more than AA KK utg.

Yes his range raising utg is huge but reraising all in after a $15000 raise from greenstein is very small. 3 hands in my opinion. Sure Doyle is capable of making a move but he isnt a maniac. What hands do you honestly think he does this with? I can only see 3, AA KK or AK and im pretty sure a lot of people on this forum are capable of laying down QQ preflop at 1-2 never mind the stakes these guys are playing for. QQ is behind well over half the time given this action and under normal circumstances greenstein would fold more often than not but obviously he thought Doyle was weak and made the call

Mr. Flibble

He is calling 80 into a pot of 120 or so, so pot odds are pretty good. I really don't think that we can discuss this hand with so little information on the players. Their second guessing of each other would go too deep.

but what the smeg;
They know each others games inside out and each of them know it.
Greenstein may have been trying to make it look as tho he was making a squeeze and thought Doyle pushed because he believed him. So thniking his plan worked to a T, insta-called.

Ollieboy

delanec8 wrote:

Yes his range raising utg is huge but reraising all in after a $15000 raise from greenstein is very small. 3 hands in my opinion. Sure Doyle is capable of making a move but he isnt a maniac. What hands do you honestly think he does this with? I can only see 3, AA KK or AK and im pretty sure a lot of people on this forum are capable of laying down QQ preflop at 1-2 never mind the stakes these guys are playing for. QQ is behind well over half the time given this action and under normal circumstances greenstein would fold more often than not but obviously he thought Doyle was weak and made the call

Look, Doyle is a very aggressive player and pushing in that position after a reraise is a common play for him with a wider range of hands than you think. Its actually a move that doesn't want a caller if you think about it and he force Green to think about his whole stack in this hand. The call by Green was fine and not a really bad play, but the move by Doyle was perfect and he got the result he want.

On a different subject, did anyone see the laydown by Phil Helmuth with the KK in the WSOP 2004 with a rag flop and some raising before the flop. He put the guy on AA, the guy was shocked when Phil show him the hand as I think he was no where as strong as Phil thought, now thats a laydown.

Samba

I have not actually seen this as of yet, obviously there is a past history with the hand and Doyle set this up.

QQ in this situation imo is an easy lay down if you were up against an unknown villain for example

It's the poker we are discussing not the money at stake, that's irrelevant


"I can bet any player on this forum would have made that call"

Just for the record - I hate QQ and fold it on a regular basis in cash play, it's generally guys who can't lay down QQ who pay off your AA/KK

Ollieboy

Samba wrote:

I have not actually seen this as of yet, obviously there is a past history with the hand and Doyle set this up.

QQ in this situation imo is an easy lay down if you were up against an unknown villain for example

It's the poker we are discussing not the money at stake, that's irrelevant


"I can bet any player on this forum would have made that call"

Just for the record - I hate QQ and fold it on a regular basis in cash play, it's generally guys who can't lay down QQ who pay off your AA/KK

agreed, but its a nice hand to have.

Marq

I think the most impressive thing about that episode is Ted Forrest's play. stuck for 125k, he gets nearly all of it back through mainly small - medium sized pots. Brunson's push is a good play too IMO - set up by a similar move with AK earlier (when he as good as admitted that that's what he had). I also think that it's a fantastic raise because for the most part Doyle had been quite quiet for the first few hours, and Greenstein might well have thought that if he was up against aces or kings, Doyle would have played them in such a way that would give his opponent the least chance of getting away from their hand (ie, not doing what he did here, and pushing his whole tank in with a massive overbet)

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote:

But I still agree he could have got away from this hand and if it had been a tourney he would have. I also think its easy to sit in your sitting room and see all the hold cards and players reaction and critise there play. I can bet any player on this forum would have made that call.

If this was 2-4 online it would be a standard fold against an unknown player. Yes it's easy to say now, it's not all that hard to fold at the table either. Plenty of players on this forum would have made this call, but then there are a lot of crap players on this forum. I would call in a tourney: firstly we wouldn't have those huge stacks, and secondly people are more likely to be pushing weak hands here.

I thought the KK in the other thread about this game was a possible fold as well. What do you think of that one?

cardshark202

Yeah Ted Forest's play was by far the most impressive. And I think the QQ is a call if he has doyle on AA KK or AK though i cant remember the exact pot size so i could be off.

Ollieboy

RoundTower wrote:

If this was 2-4 online it would be a standard fold against an unknown player. Yes it's easy to say now, it's not all that hard to fold at the table either. Plenty of players on this forum would have made this call, but then there are a lot of crap players on this forum. I would call in a tourney: firstly we wouldn't have those huge stacks, and secondly people are more likely to be pushing weak hands here.

I thought the KK in the other thread about this game was a possible fold as well. What do you think of that one?

I think I'll remember that and use it to my advantage when we play together.

Glad you think Greenstein is a crap player, how much did he win last year?

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote:

I think I'll remember that and use it to my advantage when we play together.

Glad you think Greenstein is a crap player, how much did he win last year?

Wtf? I don't think Greenstein is a crap player, I've never played with him but it sounds like he might be the best poker player in the world. But I stand by what I said in my last post.

I don't mind you knowing you can bluff me off QQ for 160BB preflop. I post a lot of things here that would help you play against me much more than that.

cardshark202

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Greenstein: 39.8574 % 39.64% 00.22% { QQ }
Brunson: 60.1426 % 59.92% 00.22% { KK+, AKs, AKo }

It was 82k to win 115k so actually its not a great call at all unless he had Brunson pinned dead for AK which he must have.

delanec8

Ollieboy wrote:

I think I'll remember that and use it to my advantage when we play together.

Glad you think Greenstein is a crap player, how much did he win last year?

Were discussing the play i dont think it matters that he is one of best players in the world. Everybody makes bad plays and can be criticised no matter their stature. It doesnt mean he is a bad player. I think Brunsons play earlier with the AK was a horrible play. He risked $200000 to win less than $8000 with AK when the only hands which would call him here are AA and KK or maybe QQ. This doesnt mean i think Doyle is crap.

sunzz

The man is so loaded it's not even funny, most of the money he wins he donates to allot of charities, I’m full sure he's the owner of Symantec. I.e. Norton etc etc. I doubt the money matters; He obviously plays with Doyle week in week out and knows his range could be anything from Aq Ak etc etc.

He’s also calling on the basis of what doyle did earlier in the series.

MrPillowTalk

sunzz wrote:

The man is so loaded it's not even funny, most of the money he wins he donates to allot of charities, I’m full sure he's the owner of Symantec. I.e. Norton etc etc. I doubt the money matters; He obviously plays with Doyle week in week out and knows his range could be anything from Aq Ak etc etc.

He’s also calling on the basis of what doyle did earlier in the series.

He was only an employee at symantec and says he made no money from the flotation. He donates all his tournament winnings but his bread and butter is that monster cash game in the Bellagio.

I am not going to criticize any one at that table untill Im in a position to sit at it.

fuzzbox

In retrospect its 82k to win 115, which is close to 3:2 odds, which is what he needs to call.

The first time Doyle moved in - he limped utg, there was a call or two and a raise from the Amateur, who clearly didnt have a big hand, because he made a meal of having a big hand earlier. Doyle then moved in when the action came back to him. He hadnt done a thing up to that point.

This is a completely different situation. Doyle opens for a bigger than normal raise utg, there are a couple of calls, then BB reraises, and then doyle moves in.

Doyle played both spots very well (imho). And in hindsight, if Barry wants to make the "squeeze" play, he is gonna have to call when the odds are slightly against him, as they are here, in order to prevent "re-squeezing".

I take it back - they both played good ... but Barry played less good .

Ollieboy

fuzzbox wrote:

In retrospect its 82k to win 115, which is close to 3:2 odds, which is what he needs to call.

The first time Doyle moved in - he limped utg, there was a call or two and a raise from the Amateur, who clearly didnt have a big hand, because he made a meal of having a big hand earlier. Doyle then moved in when the action came back to him. He hadnt done a thing up to that point.

This is a completely different situation. Doyle opens for a bigger than normal raise utg, there are a couple of calls, then BB reraises, and then doyle moves in.

Doyle played both spots very well (imho). And in hindsight, if Barry wants to make the "squeeze" play, he is gonna have to call when the odds are slightly against him, as they are here, in order to prevent "re-squeezing".

I take it back - they both played good ... but Barry played less good .

lol agreed, but I meant Doyle made it look more like a squeeze play my raising all-in. I dont think Green was really worried about pot odds here, he felt he was ahead and it was only 80 more to call.

end of subject.lol

RasTa

Your also going to see in later eposides Doyle go all in to a re-raise by danny when doyle has floped top set and danny is betting loose at this stage.

delanec8

RasTa wrote:

Your also going to see in later eposides Doyle go all in to a re-raise by danny when doyle has floped top set and danny is betting loose at this stage.

Then the reverse when danny flops a set and brunson has AA

RasTa

Yea i know but Doyle did have a set in the hand I was taking about AAA to be exact.