why no wind power grants?

gwangwangwan

Hi, my first post here as a newbie to renewables...apologies for the length

I live in a windy area and would like to install a smallish wind turbine. I heard about the "greener homers" scheme from SEI and asked them if they gave a grant for domestic wind turbines for existing homes. This was their response:

"Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. There are a few things to
consider when developing a grant. Firstly with domestic wind turbines
you cannot connect to the national grid at the moment, so you need to
have batteries which can be very expensive.

Secondly there was already a market and an established installers and
suppliers of renewable heating and it is a lot easier and more effective
to build a grant around a market and a system that is already
established.

Also our funding was very limited, considering that there are going to
be roughly 80,000 new houses built in Ireland we need to develop a grant
which is achievable and realistic for most people. For example not
everyone would have the space to have a wind turbine e.g. in the cities
or highly populated areas, but almost everyone from apartments to large
houses can available of solar panels or a wood pellet boiler and this
grant is aimed at a majority rather than a minority, you can install a
renewable energy heating system into any house, old or new.

In regard to wind turbines there are still a lot of safety and legal
issues around them and with planning authorities etc, so it was simply
easier to have a grant where the majority or people can receive the
greatest benefit, rather than a minority who may experience problems
with planning, safety, etc."


Are these reasons valid? I thought Ireland was one of the windiest places in Europe yet other European countries seem way ahead of us in wind energy. I dont know the figures but there must be 1000's of bungalows like ours scattered across rural Ireland. Also, a cursory trawl through the interweb showed several established suppliers of wind turbines. Are there major safety, legal and planning issues? Are batteries really more expensive than installing geothermal heating, for which grants are available? Also, wouldnt wind be better than burning wood chips? Are there any small on-grid wind turbines available like the one that David Cameron, the UK Tory leader, has on his roof?

I intend to reply but just wanted to check the facts with you guys...


Regards
gwangwangwan

CJhaughey

The real reason that SEI are not giving a grant for wind power generation is that the ESB have a monopoly on power generation and distribution in this isle and they have powerful friends that will use any method that they can to prevent the development of off grid solutions for the proletariat.
It sounds like a big brother situation but it is real, just look at the costs to connect to the grid, somewhere in the vicinity of €10k for a start. In other countries there is no cost and they actively encourage people to do this.
Look at other things in the greener homes scheme do you see ANY form of power generation being subsidised? no? well thats because of the ESB.

Kelter

In all fairness SEI has nothing to do with ESB. As far as I know there is no member of staff at SEI that has ever worked for ESB. That’s an unbelievable stat considering the dominance of ESB on the engineering profession

As for Wind, they are right about the various legal and reguloratory problems. Also small scale electrical is not really economic.

I’d say all their points are reasonably fair.

And if you didn’t burn wood chips (which come from waste wood) the wood would rot, and give off methane. So its not bad at all.

ednwireland

yep just watching the green thing on bbc2 last night and the guy in the uk was allowed to switch between grid and his own very impressively bodged water wheel powered generator. in the uk you can put generating equipment in your house and sell to the grid what you dont use yourself

see the episodes here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=easy_green

i beleive in ireland you have to run a seperate set of sockets top use your own electricity

CJhaughey

Kelter wrote:

In all fairness SEI has nothing to do with ESB. As far as I know there is no member of staff at SEI that has ever worked for ESB. That’s an unbelievable stat considering the dominance of ESB on the engineering profession

Maybe not staff but......

SEI's Current Board Members

David Naughton is the National Industrial Officer with the Technical, Engineering and Electrical Union. David has national responsibility for the ESB and the National Joint Industrial Council for the Electrical Contracting Industry. He has additional responsibility for the Dublin No.3 and Limerick No. 2 branches.

Kelter wrote:

As for Wind, they are right about the various legal and reguloratory problems. Also small scale electrical is not really economic

How do you work that out?
It may not be economic with the current price of oil but you can be sure that in a few years with a $100 a barrel price it will start to look a lot more attractive

Kelter wrote:

I’d say all their points are reasonably fair.

Yep fair if you are part of a large consortium that can build a huge windfarm in conjunction with the ESB, but not if you are a small scale producer that can occasionally feed power back into the grid.

I think a clue may be in the words *limited funding*
In other words the Government will give a small amount of money to SEI to dole out as long as it doesn't interfere with the ESB making money from it's dominant position in the market, or encourage the proletariat to become self sufficient energy wise.

turbine?

CJhaughey wrote:

Maybe not staff but......

SEI's Current Board Members

David Naughton is the National Industrial Officer with the Technical, Engineering and Electrical Union. David has national responsibility for the ESB and the National Joint Industrial Council for the Electrical Contracting Industry. He has additional responsibility for the Dublin No.3 and Limerick No. 2 branches.

Now that is interesting.

Kelter

Fair enough, I didn't consider the board. I do think however that the points made in their reply were fair. I think that it would have been unreasonable for the state to grant aid the widespread deployment of a technology whose legality (both by law and by technical standards) is questionnable. Also SEI is in the business of reducing Carbon emissions. Per euro the heat options give better bang for buck.

If you really want to be annoied with them. Would it not make more sense to wonder why they have not put further insentives in place on energy efficiency, such as insulation and cfls.

Also ask why any of the products still have VAT on them.

Ask why nural networks are not used to run the transmission system (which would cut the electricity demand by 10 to 15%)



If domestic wind were to become widespred, and every house had a 100w generator, which worked every day between 5-7 at 100% efficiency, it would cut the national load at that time (which is the peak) by 100MW. This would mean that the ESB wouldn't have to switch on there least efficient plant, and so would become far more profitable (though it would be good from an emmissions point of view).

lostexpectation

The 11 windmills now operating in Taurbeg since February are already posing problems to residents, with many claiming the giant turbines are causing sleepless nights. The sound of the turbines was described by one resident as like a “plane which consistently hovers but never lands”.

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/papers/article.php?sid=8827&mode=thread&order=0


even enviromentally friendly things gotta follow sensible planning rules not to many not to near and preferably not in previously unspoilt habitats

gwangwangwan

Thanks for the replies - not sure about the conspiracy theories but it does seem a bit unfair to me that wind generation is not provided for, when other governments not far away from us are actively promoting domestic energy production.

Kelter, you make good points re: VAT, insulation and rural generating networks etc. Regarding wind power, could you clarify what you mean by "questionable legality"? Is it illegal to install a domestic wind turbine in this country? If so then I think the law needs to be changed....!

I dont believe wind is the only answer, but it seems reasonable to make use of Ireland's huge wind resource. Ireland is also one of the cloudiest parts of the EU, making solar energy less attractive. However, until a "magic bullet", e.g. cold fusion, is a practical option, surely a holistic approach to energy conservation and renewable supply is appropriate? I wasnt saying every home, particularly in urban areas, should have a windmill, although having them atop high commercial buildings seems to make sense. I also agree that having giant wind farms in beautiful countryside is visually bad and can create noise problems. The best option for these would be huge off-shore reefs to take advantage of better wind generating conditions and at the same time provide a safe habitat for marine life that is being decimated by overfishing.

The particular wind generators supplier I was thinking of is Surface Power, based in Mayo. They make small turbines & solar hybrid systems for irish domestic use. Are there any folks out there with direct experience of these systems? I also would be worried about the noise aspects.

Kelter

Not sure, about your specific supplier, but I'm sure they will be able to supply you with a number of past installations.

I know why one would like to put in a wind turbine, I'd like to myself, but as most experts will tell you that the other options are better, then you really should begin by changing your heating system to woodchip, and changing all your appliances to the most energy efficient. I know its less sexy, but it really does make more green sense

Kelter

As for legal stuff. domestic wind turbines are not really allowable without planning, and few if any have them. Now I've never heard of any being taken down because of it, but SEI couldn't grant aid you to do something which isn't legal.

As for illegal, it should also be pointed out that skylights are also illegal, but I've never heard of anyone being forced to take them down either.

Also the ETCI (electro technical council of Ireland) have issues with their disconnect time. Most of them back feed your fuse board. If you were to get a fault, the mains would trip so you wouldn't get electrocuted. The wind turbine would not necessarily do this so you might get a shock, and get injured from it (most likely from the fall)

riccol1966

I realise this thread is old but am just catching up with various posts around the boards. I do have the SP system and the turbine is quiet, you can hear the noise though at higher speeds but it is not considerable.

I also take issue with anyone suggesting that generating your own electricity is not practical. It is, but it may not be very cost effective in the short term. Also, if you think of the power used to get your ESB supply to you, and the huge overheads in terms of origin and transport, large inefficient voltages and so on, generating it yourself is the best way.

Sarsfield

There's a very interesting discussion on the value of domestic wind turbines on the BBC Newsnight website. Apparently the leader ot the tory parth has planning permission for one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/12/will_the_tory_leader_get_it_up_his_turbine_that_is.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/11/are_domestic_wind_turbines_an_ecocon.html

gally74

hello,

hear we are about 1 month away for a large grant for domestic wind turbines