management fees in new housing estates

gazzer

I wonder are other people living in new estates in the same situation as i am.

The estate i live in was only built 4 years ago (the last units built about 18 months ago). The majority of units in the esate are 2/3 bed houses though there are some 1/2 bedroomed own door apartments (no comunal area). Anyway the estate is one in which there is a mixture of social housing, affordable/private housing.. I was delighted when my application for a house was succesful 4 years ago and i signed up to purchase my 3 bed. At the time i was asked (as was everybody else who signed for a house) to sign a form to agree for a fee to be included in my mortgage for 2 years for 'management fees'. These fees i was told where for the upkeep of the estate until such a time as the whole estate was built and the developers moved out and after those two years the residents would take control.

Now i will admit to being niaive about signing this consent form.. i didnt realise that what i was signing up for was in effect to pay for the council services that all the estates around me are getting without paying a managment fee. So i am the position now where i about to enter my 5th year of paying over 600 euro a year for getting the grass in the estate cut and thats about it really.. the bin charges are extra. There are a number of council tenants who have to pay the management fees as part of their rent.

There was a residents meeting about this last night and a number of TD's and councillors turned up.. We were told that the management fees also include public liability insurance..Of the 700+ units in the estate only 300 have paid management fees (100 of those the council tenants i mentioned earlier) Anyway we are trying to get the council to take the estate in charge.. there is nothing special about the estate i live in.. its not closed off from the rest of the area.. in fact there are a number of estates you can enter from my estate... there is a public access road running through the centre of the estate that a lot of traffic passes through.

Anyway i was just wondering if anybody else has been caught in this trap of paying management fees and what you have done about it.. im really annoyed about it.. i mean i thought some of the money i pay in taxes went to the councils to fund the maintanence of the areas in their locality.

Sleepy

Can't ye just sack the management company?

gazzer

well that is an option .. though trying to get in touch with the two directors of the management company(2 council employees) is impossible.. also even if we got rid of the existing management company everybody on the estate is effectivally a shareholder so we would be in the position of having to pay for the services anyway and then having to chase neighbours who didnt pay for the service...

My point in the original post was that i dont think anybody in the estate should have to pay for a service which all the estates around us are getting for free (well from their taxes anyway)

MorningStar

The quick answer is it is the councils fault but you did buy a property with a communial area. Ignorance is not an excuse unless you want to sue your lawyer for not making it clear but I ma sure as you signed a piece of paper saying you did.

The council do not service your area so your opinion of whether they should or not is kind of irrelevant as effectively it is private property. Councils used to take control of such property. Now they have figured it out that they don't have to. The people you need to go against is the council for not taking ownership. Be gratefull the developer didn't build on the cmmunial park space as some have due to density regs changing over the 4 year period.

On a side note coucil employees have a restrictive work policy AFAIK when means they can't have buinesses or do nixers due to possible corruption. Your management company sounds like they could be breaking such a rule. As it is the council it makes it criminal offense not civil. Not 100% sure but worth looking at.

eamo73

here is a few pages of info i have put together on MANAGEMENT COMPANIES.
hope it helps!
its a copy of several emails i have previously sent
eamo73 aka EAMONN

Dear Councillors,
Deputies,
Minister,
following is a statement I read out at a press conference organised by Joe Higgins TD and Catherine Murphy TD on Feb 28th.
I respectfully submit this to you all, as we need all the help, support, advice we can get.
We are residents who are cught up in the PROPERTY MANAGEMENT COMPANY structure.
I will be in touch again, on behalf of our residents, and residents all across Balbriggan who are similarly affected.

My name is Eamonn Smith and I am the chairperson of a residents committee recently formed in Barons hall Balbriggan, representing
the concerns of residents affected by management companies
and campaigning for the abolition of the management company structure foisted upon us.

I speak to you as an affected homeowner, and representative of the comments and sentiments expressed by fellow residents in Barons hall.

Management companies in developments charge enormous fees for the maintenance of basic public services, which, elsewhere in Ireland, are funded from general taxation.

Fingal County Council, among other local authorities, has been very active in pushing management companies. These local authorities put the formation of management companies as a condition of giving planning permission.

This is a very clever, deceitful and downright dishonest way of privatising public services, services that the local authority should be responsible for maintaining, as in all previously built estates.

This means a new tax on homeowners in affected areas.

Local authorities explain this with the line
"the increase in housing density requires this".
I submit that this is totally false.

What IS clear is that with our rapidly expanding population and the property development therein, there is a massive increase in the number of residential units allowed per acre.

This now means that residents buying properties from these developments can expect to pay a direct AND an indirect tax.

New developers reap huge dividends from management companies.
In the past, the developer has always had to cover basic maintenance of their developments until the local authority takes charge. For the developer this could mean several years.
NOW, they can foist massive fees for basic maintenance onto residents, from whom they have already made massive profits.

Service charges themselves, or maintenance fees, usually cover the cost of general maintenance, building insurance, waste disposal, security.
The bulk of the service charge on residents is made up of two things;
1. Administrative fees
IE a management company charging a homeowner, for the very letters they send to the homeowner, detailing monies owed by the homeowner to the management company.

2. Paying the management company salaries.

While I appreciate that there needs to be legislation and proper regulation for property management with regard to apartments and their maintenance, insurance, etc, it is very important to remember that,
as service charges are set each year by management companies, it is impossible for buyers to determine how high their future maintenance costs will be.

A typical contract binds a potential buyer to pay the service charge that the management company
"In its sole discretion deems to be fair and reasonable payment in respect of the year then commencing".

I have numerous emails with me from residents in Barons Hall, stating that their fees have increased by anything up to 50% in the last year.

In our development, I can categorically state that residents feel they have been hoodwinked into having a management company.

Whatever about having a management company in place for apartments (and then not actually carrying out services),
where on earth are they allowed to sink their teeth into houses, where owners pay their own insurance and do not get any building maintenance or security.

With this management company in place, my fellow residents and I are enduring disgraceful graffiti not removed properly, rubbish strewn everywhere, abandoned cars simply left in residential parking areas, burned out cars, so called common areas, which , pictorial evidence will show are massive mounds of earth and rubble left unattended. Areas throughout the development have broken glass on the ground, where cars have been broken into. There appears to be no security in place. The glass in the resident car park behind my house has been on the ground since Jan 2004, that's two years. I myself made an attempt to clear some away.

In November, our management company presented a shambolic AGM, with no directors present, merely a Chairman and an accountant.
The was no structure to the meeting, no information handed out or presentations made, nothing whatsoever.
At this AGM, in one particular instance, the management company chairman undertook to investigate alternatives to each resident having their own wheelie bin, which the resident could leave out for collection when THEY chose.
A move to communal bins was suggested by the management company. This was unanimously rejected out of hand by residents who ventured their opinion,
as this would mean residents, in their annual invoice, basically being charged weekly, whether they put a bin out or not.
The management company chairman promised to research the matter further and get back to the residents. In act act of total deceit, the chairman forced through the introduction of the communal bin system, having consulted NOBODY from the residents. As chairperson of the Barons Hall group i can assure you that nobody was approached or consulted. The committee certainly was not. This serves as a total slap in the face to all residents, and underlining that residents are apparently tied into a contract over which they have no control, or opinion,
and the management has, it would seem, sole authority to do as they please and charge as they please.

On many occasions I have walked around Barons Hall and found many things amiss or broken, front doors to apartment complexes, which do not close,
broken intercom, broken buzzers, halls in total darkness,
houses with rubbish strewn all across their fronts and on paths and roads,
roads in absolutely desperate condition.
I personally fear for my children's safety on these roads with the speeds that cars are allowed drive through the development, as we have no yellow lines, speed ramps, 5mph speed limit signs etc. anywhere in Barons Hall.

Several times I put it directly to the management company chairman, who has simply said that this is not the case,they provide us good service,
and anyway we all signed up to this so it really doesn't matter what we think, we are tied into a management company through our contract.

This is absolutely disgraceful. The entire development is a disgrace and does not remotely suggest, to me anyway, that anybody is actually taking charge of maintenance.

I can categorically state that I personally have received NO service or maintenance whatsoever about my property, except perhaps for a little chipped bark outside my front door in 2003.
Why then am I expected to pay a bill for €492.00 for no services rendered.
Residents who have so far been in contact with the committee share these feelings.

Currently, NO legislation exists, and NO government department has ANY responsibility for the regulation of service charges and property management companies,
as these agreements are considered contractual. It does not seem to matter that no resident is made aware of this clause in their contract until long after they have signed it. That is certainly my own personal experience.

I thoroughly welcome initiatives such as this press conference, as residents nationwide are being duped out of millions of euros.

I call on all residents who share these views, to take action to protect their interests. From a personal standpoint, I would be very happy to establish links with similarly affected residents and their committees.

Our committee wishes to wholeheartedly praise the efforts of the residents of Tyrellstown Castlecurrah and Ongar, and the action group working on their behalf. Theirs is a similar tale,
a management company has ignored issues affecting these residents at every turn, and has provided these residents with no service that would justify the fees they demand.
I would call on all residents similarly affected, and their representative groups, to echo these sentiments, and follow the lead of the Tyrellstown campaign.

Our Barons Hall AGM took place in November. We demanded action from our management company. We were asked by them to give them a chance to deliver.
Today is the first of MARCH! Nothing has happened to make residents feel they are any better off.
The managemant company has simply reissued their invoices to us, charging in some cases up to €1400.00. They quickly followed this up with a reminder letter.
Yet, any correspondence or phone calls or emails to the management company are ignored, I am told by other residents, as well as experiencing it personally.
Residents are reluctant to pay a fee having received services that in no way justify the fee. How can they be asked to hand over money for nothing.
Lets not forget, taxpaying residents have ALREADY paid for a service, which the local authority should be providing, as is the case elsewhere.

In closing, I call for, and welcome the introduction of,
a Nationwide action group, to stand up to the bullying intimidatory nature of management companies and the extortionate demands meted out to us by them.

Thank you.
Eamonn Smith
Chairperson
Barons Hall Residents Committee

gazzer

@ eamo73

Thanks for that reply.. its a terrible situation to be in...paying out money for a non existent service... I actually live in Castlecurragh .. we had a reporter from the Star newspaper out today who took some photos and is going to do a story(dont know when it is in the paper though).. hopefully things will get moving now for all estates that have this situation foisted upon them.

The government would want to get up off their ass and do something about this.. One of the Fianna Fail TDs told us at the metting on Monday that their was nothing that the goverment could do as it was the council who drew up these management committee plans.. I cant wait till next year when they are knocking on the door looking for votes

Moaning about a management company after buying a property is as sensible as buying a house and then giving out about the colour. You bought into it, it's part of the contract, nothing was foisted on you without you signing for it, tough luck. Far better than whinging about it afterwards would be to rgad the company documentation in avance of signing up to it.

If management companies didn't exist, the individual householders would be liable for any claims over the roads (like someone breaking a leg), and frankly they are still the most efficient way of ensuring that housing developments work. Furthermore, the most nonsensical thing of all is withholding the money. That can affect your title and render your property unsaleable if the company is struck off for failing to file returns.

MorningStar

I think how Eamo73 letters show how Irish people don't know how to complain. Instead of clearly stating the issue ritgeous indignation is poured out.

As somebody who relies on Dublin City Council to maintain my roads and area I can also walk around and see they have not done things.

Why anybody would sign a contract with a management company and then write a letter to the council to complain is beyond me. It is your management company you can change thigs and fire them.

If you are going to write to the council you should be asking why they won't take control not telling them how your management companies is no use.

THere are two issues
1) THe management company is not doing the job to the standard you want.
You can fire this company and hire another one
2) The council won't take ownership of your area
Petition them to take ownership.

Non payment of fees does nothing but make the situation worse. AS far as I am concerend the Barons Hall estate should be left to twist in the wind now to illistrate how not to do this. You can't have people just walk away on contracts and the government can't support that.

THe owners are responsible for their own actions.