Betting Turn

AmarilloFats

2 hands 6max 1/2
Hand 1
I have 300, utg has 190
I get AQo in MP
UTG limps, I make it $8, Just UTG calls.

Flops comes
AhQhJh

Villain(~40vpip,~ 7pfr) checks, I bet $15, Villain calls
Turn comes 6s
Villain checks, I bet $35, Villain calls. Does anyone check this turn????

River come 7c
Villain checks...Push or value??
I bet $70.................

Hand 2

I have $200, Both Villains cover.

4 Limpers I make it $11 on button with AJo
LP villain and CO Villain call.

Flop comes A 9 Kr
Checked to me .... I check...

Turn is a King (board = A 9 K K)

Lp villain bets pot CO calls I fold...

IS it ok to play a hand like this passively sometimes??? Keeping the pot small on a fairly drawless board>>>??

fuzzbox

Hand 1 - Sometimes I check flop, sometimes I check turn, sometimes I check river. Value bet the river pretty small ... its hard for him to have something to look you up with here.

Hand 2 - I bet that flop, its not drawless, there are 2 broadway cards and a 9 on the flop. And you have two villains.

ianmc38

Hand 1: I bet small on the river
Hand 2: I bet that flop. As it panned out I fold the turn as well.

Ste05

Hand 1: Check the river.
Why would you bet anything on the river?? - What's calling that you beat. The only reason to bet the river is to maybe make QQ or JJ fold, but that's unlikely as the hand played out.
If you bet you can't call a re-raise, which you open yourself up to (by betting small) and you're only getting called by hands that beat you. Hands that you beat will just fold to a bet, so what do you gain by betting.

Risk Reward Ratio, not in the favour of a River bet here.

Hand 2: Bet Flop, as it played out fold turn.

careca

Ste05 wrote:

Hand 1: - What's calling that you beat. .

I would normally agree with you to check here but there are still a fair few hands that would call that bet considering its 1/2. AJ, QJ, AK might and depending on the standard some Ax merchants might even call.

I take your point on the risk ratio but I don't think the bet is that bad a play.

Ste05

careca wrote:

I would normally agree with you to check here but there are still a fair few hands that would call that bet considering its 1/2. AJ, QJ, AK might and depending on the standard some Ax merchants might even call.

I take your point on the risk ratio but I don't think the bet is that bad a play.

Well IMO the standard 1/2 on-line player won't play those hands like this, who limps UTG with those hands and then calls down? And you'd need to have seen evidence that this player is a donk. He's quite aggressive Pre-Flop, PFR=7 and so I'd assume he's raising with most of these hands.

My problem with betting is that it opens yourself up to either folding a winning hand or losing more than you already have. Neither is too appealing IMO. The best result from a River bet is that it might fold out QQ or JJ (but again you'd need to have seen evidence that this villain can lay down big hands to a small bet) and then effectively you are bluffing without knowing it (again not something I find appealing)

You have an OK hand by the river, but when you bet out, what do you do a standard re-raise, (or even a Fuzzbox patented min-raise ),

If he folds a worse hand you don't even get the information about what he called the turn with.

IMO there is nothing to be gained by betting this river. The pot is ~$116 how much do you bet??

Hectorjelly

Hand one I agree with fuzzbox, Im checking one street anyway against a normal player. Probably the river

Hand two I bet the flop 100% of the time against 2 opponents. Fine to check against one.

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Hand 1: Check the river.
Why would you bet anything on the river?? - What's calling that you beat. The only reason to bet the river is to maybe make QQ or JJ fold, but that's unlikely as the hand played out.
If you bet you can't call a re-raise, which you open yourself up to (by betting small) and you're only getting called by hands that beat you. Hands that you beat will just fold to a bet, so what do you gain by betting.

Risk Reward Ratio, not in the favour of a River bet here.

Hand 2: Bet Flop, as it played out fold turn.

I dont see any risk - he will very rarely raise you with a worse hand here ... I mean you have just fired four bullets into a scary board, so raising you with a worse hand than AQ happens just about never I reckon.
Thus there is no risk, becuase you will almost never be forced to fold the best hand, if he raises, then you can safely fold, no matter how big the raise.

I think he can call with AJ and QJ here sometimes ... or maybe talk himself into calling with AxKh.

careca

Ste05 wrote:

You have an OK hand by the river, but when you bet out, what do you do a standard re-raise, (or even a Fuzzbox patented min-raise ),

If he folds a worse hand you don't even get the information about what he called the turn with.

IMO there is nothing to be gained by betting this river. The pot is ~$116 how much do you bet??

I think you have a good hand by the river. There aren't too many players in 1/2 ,imo, who would check the river hoping for a bet in order to reraise. I reckon if he had the made flush he would be raising the turn or leading the river. That would also apply to 10Jo where he would probably raise the flop in order to see where he was. As for a set, then as you suggested he would probably have raised preflop.

I like the bet of 70 as this is exactly the amount that a player could call with second two pair.

AmarilloFats

Thanks lads.
Hand 1: He called with AsTh
I will often check this turn and then Bet safe river... ..but I've decded to umph my PT agg factor from it's meagre 1.6..
Steo... What you say is completely logical..And because of that you and I are missing alot of value against the average illogical opponent.

I can't remember the last time a villain check called all streets and check Raised the river.....
I was not afraid of it in this case and I would have called his all in in a second...

Hand 2:
I checked here just to mix it up..and I think sometimes there's too much going on with 3 tables!!! Does anyone else find this?>????
Lp Bet 1/2 pot on river Co calls with K5, LP had AJo///..

Why would I bet pot here against 2 opponents, yet check against one?? Simply because with 2 opponents there is a higher likelyhood they can make a better hand on turn!!???
Any other reasons..

Ste05

Well I suppose we can all agree to disagree, but myself personally would be checking this River.

EDIT: Amarillo you could be right about missing out on an extra bet alright, but my thinking here was I was trying to limit losses and not maximise winnings, because I would have assumed that only a better hand was calling. Hmmmm, unfortunately I think I'll still be checking here.

AmarilloFats

AmarilloFats wrote:

I will often check this turn and then Bet safe river... ..but I've decded to umph my PT agg factor from it's meagre 1.6..
Steo... What you say is completely logical..And because of that you and I are missing alot of value against the average illogical opponent.

I think I'm giving them too much credit..

If i raise with AK 1 opponent calls flop comes A XX ..I bet pot...I check turn I value bet river.... Standard

MY friend raises with Ak flop comes A XX , he bets pot on flop, and bets pot on turn ..pushes river....
HE MAKES MORE THAN ME. he give them not credit, and thus far he's right..

AmarilloFats

Ste05 wrote:

Well I suppose we can all agree to disagree, but myself personally would be checking this River.

EDIT: Amarillo you could be right about missing out on an extra bet alright, but my thinking here was I was trying to limit losses and not maximise winnings, because I would have assumed that only a better hand was calling. Hmmmm, unfortunately I think I'll still be checking here.

..I think checking the turn, value betting river is superior to betting turn checking river.
Although, you're giving them a free card( and you one also).
But i think after checking turn you might get them to take a stab at the river bluff...Or get them to call with a weak Ace.!

ianmc38

AmarilloFats wrote:

Why would I bet pot here against 2 opponents, yet check against one?? Simply because with 2 opponents there is a higher likelyhood they can make a better hand on turn!!???
Any other reasons..

Against 1 player checking gives the villain the chance to bluff with a weaker hand on the turn and also saves you money against AK etc.

Back to the OP - Hand 1: In my experience 0.1% of 1/2 players check the river with the intention of check-raising. That is why I value bet in this spot. With the pot at 120. i'll probably bet 30-40.

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

..I think checking the turn, value betting river is superior to betting turn checking river.
Although, you're giving them a free card( and you one also).
But i think after checking turn you might get them to take a stab at the river bluff...Or get them to call with a weak Ace.!

He is more likely to have a draw though .... so betting the turn is superior if his bluff-the-river propensity is low.

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

I think I'm giving them too much credit..

If i raise with AK 1 opponent calls flop comes A XX ..I bet pot...I check turn I value bet river.... Standard

MY friend raises with Ak flop comes A XX , he bets pot on flop, and bets pot on turn ..pushes river....
HE MAKES MORE THAN ME. he give them not credit, and thus far he's right..

Depending on the opponent and the board - I either play like your friend or play like you.

Vs good oppoents you can often trap yourself, if you play like your friend ... Vs bad opponents, his line rocks.

Ste05

I have a horrible feeling this is going to turn into a very results orientated thread. I can't believe that this muppet actually called with A10o, but he did so *shrugs*. He obviously doesn't like money and once someone else doesn't stack him in the mean time, there'll be plenty of money to be made from him.

Another point is this whatever his intention was by checking the river, exactly what do you think you are representing with this 30-40 bet. It basically boils down to maybe getting another $30 or $40 from a donkey, or opening up yourself to a good player who might just take a pop at you, whatever his intention for checking was.

I'm not sure where you get your 0.1% stat from but it sure sounds good.

Anyway, I think that's me, I've said my piece and don't think I've anything more to add really. Each to their own really.

AmarilloFats

If there was a WSOP "Table Selection" event my friend would be a world champ..the 24hours a day data mining fiend....

fuzzbox

Not only did this muppet call the river with his crappy hand ... he also called preflop, then on the flop with the draw to the 2nd nut flush (if the board showed a 4-card flush), and a draw to the 4-card str8, neither of which he would get paid for hitting.

He is clearly a muppet.

Getting max value from muppets is great.

AmarilloFats

Ste05 wrote:

I have a horrible feeling this is going to turn into a very results orientated thread. I can't believe that this muppet actually called with A10o, but he did so *shrugs*. He obviously doesn't like money and once someone else doesn't stack him in the mean time, there'll be plenty of money to be made from him.

relax the cack Ste.
Results orientated think is obv bad..but somewhere after thousands of hands on party(and discussing hands up to 5/10 on party) results become empirical evidence..
Just trying to push an edge that's all. But My default play (without a read) was to manage pot, keep it small, check a street....maybe my default should be a bit more bingo bango ship it.

Oh and the stat is just from Poker tracker ..there was a thread here yesterday about peoples aggression factor..My turn one appeared to be slightly low..Although still classed as aggro..

Ste05

AmarilloFats wrote:

relax the cack Ste...

LOL, didn't mean to sound narky, it's just as you know the correct play may not be the one that brings the best results. (EDIT: In any one particular hand) And so the actual outcome of this hand shouldn't come into the discussion.

Although if we knew this guy was the moron he turned out to be, I'd be betting here too.

AmarilloFats wrote:

But My default play (without a read) was to manage pot, keep it small, check a street....maybe my default should be a bit more bingo bango ship it.

Ye basically the consensus here. (I'd be checking the River though, I completely agree with Fuzzbox about checking the Turn).
My points were based on after betting the flop and turn, getting called in both spots, in that case I'd rarely bet the river if offered a free showdown.

AmarilloFats wrote:

Oh and the stat is just from Poker tracker ..there was a thread here yesterday about peoples aggression factor..My turn one appeared to be slightly low..Although still classed as aggro..

This is one problem I had a while back, I was trying to play to my stats, don't bother.

Just keep making the right decisions and the stats will look after themselves. Basically it's all about sample size. If there's a problem with your stats, it's usually a leak in your game or a different style being employed by you. However it's not something that can be fixed by trying to massage your stats. Just my 0.2c