Intercity DMU's?

sameoldname

Just wondering if anyone has any info on these new DMU's on order from Rotem/Mitsu?
Bar for the Irish PR, This is about all I could find.
It says that they are only going to be 160km/h. I presume this is because they won't be running on the Dublin/Cork route which is getting a 200km/h upgrade and the rest of the network will remain 160km/h max?

BTW 'tis my first post. Realised I had been reading these boards for months and never contributing:rolleyes:

murphaph

No news I'm afraid but the 160km/h spec would appear to be shortsighted given that Lynch is now talking about 200km/h on the Cork line. These DMUs will NOT now be able to take advantage of any future 200km/h upgrade (remember that Waterford, Tralee, Limerick, Galway, Ballina and Westport trains all use the Cork line in some shape or form!

crosstownk

When are these DMUs going into service (or have they started already)?

Lennoxschips

this is possibly a confirmation that the 200 km/hr upgrade is pie in the sky

murphaph

Then why waste money on 200km/h coaches for the Cork line? What it does show is that IE haven't got a notion what the future holds and it's nonsense. They have no apparent strategy for IC long term. It seems hit and miss all the time!

sameoldname

It does seem fairly stupid to run 200km/h CDE trains sharing track with 160km/h DMU's and Class 201 locos alright. Thats if they do ever upgrade the Cork/Dublin line.
I do remember reading once maybe on these boards that the DMU's were supposed to be 200km/h, though I could be wrong and besides, Rotem say they're 160km/h so thats what they must be. Seems short-sighted for sure.

Does anyone know what form the sets will be? 2-car, 4-car?

MarkoP11

Dublin Cork is the only line the country that is straight enough to allow for serious high speed running its also without question the best built line, there are only a handful of level crossings left and there is funding in the pipeline to relay a section already

Its a question of balancing speed and acceleration, speed is great but its a law of diminishing return. It takes roughly 6.5 - 7km to accelerate to 200kph (DART does 0-100kph in 360m) and another 2.5km to stop and given the regional designation of the services the new intercity railcars will operate as they will be making plenty of stops and plently of single track lines, in that case a realistic top speed with good acceleration is preferable over outright speed. The performance difference is extreme and its important to balance. The extra purchase cost of 200 kph is considerable. The extra infrastructure costs are also considerable not to mention you would need some form of cab signalling at 200 kph which beyond Dublin Cork/Dundalk/Athlone/Maynooth/Greystones doesn't exist and it aint planned

The infrastructure won't take going much faster so you turn the tables and go with a faster accelerating train.

The MK3 coaches from 1984 where the only thing available on the market when the Link Hoffmann Busch factory project went belly up thanks to the unions, they just happened to be the cheapest 23m air-conditioned coach going, the fact they could do 200 kph was more luck than intent. The new Cork trains where originally tendered for as 160kph but that was revised to 200kph on the second tender so clearly there is a plan and given the business plan of hourly with 3 stops there is scope to sustain very high speeds, all stops to Galway is a diffent matter entirely.

The 200 kph proposal from IE is the classic locomotive at each end solution reusing existing coaches and looks likely to be based on the UK HST2 project which should surface in 2015 around the same time as the fleet renewal decision on the remaining MK3 coaches is around then and the 071 class locomotives will be on there last legs.

Put simply call all stations Dublin Cork, time the 200kph train vs the 160kph train there won't be much in it, non stop would be different case.

There are at most 3 trains an hour south of Portlaois so fast and slow can coexist, for 2 decades 90mph and 75 mph have coexisted so 100 vs 125mph is the same difference

MarkoP11

sameoldname wrote:

Does anyone know what form the sets will be? 2-car, 4-car?

There are 150 on order in two batches
Batch 1 ordered January 2005 is 120 coaches, made up of a combination of fixed 6 and 3 coach units, the 6 coach sets have first class and full catering. €262 million
Batch 2 ordered December 2005 is 30 coaches and is formed into 10 3 car sets to the same spec as above, the NRA paid for them

All coaches have an underfloor engine. The interior mock up was show to senior IE staff in recent weeks. Ive seen a photo and it looks well good

The first unit it due before Christmas, allowing the usual 6 to 8 months testing December 2007 is when they will enter full timetabled service

jlang

MarkoP11 wrote:

...the NRA paid for them...

160km/h is probably fine then, because the newest NRA lines only have a limit of 120km/h. I'm looking forward to being overtaken by one on the M7.

sameoldname

Thanks for the info Marko.
Has anyone got any experiences of travelling on similer types of DMU's? (Long distance not commuter trains) If so were they noisey, comfortable, etc...
I'd hate to think they were going to be the same as the commuter railcars with different seats and more toilets!

Victor

jlang wrote:

160km/h is probably fine then, because the newest NRA lines only have a limit of 120km/h. I'm looking forward to being overtaken by one on the M7.

The NRA had a budget underspend, so the DoT spent the money on trains instead.

MarkoP11

What I have seen of the interior puts it well above the standard of even the new Cork intercity coaches

They are proper intercity coaches by design, its a new design so comparisons to other trains are not really worthwhile. The closest comparison is possibly the UK class 180 but with a smaller engine

The only real concern is the ride engine noise and vibration can be dealt with. Not one single coach IE has introduced since the 1980's batch has a decent ride, they all have European, Japanese stiff suspension which aint nice, all the old stuff had more supple UK design

I have more details on seating layout somewhere

The cost of the second batch is €62 million

Transport21 Fan

Victor wrote:

The NRA had a budget underspend, so the DoT spent the money on trains instead.

One would think that with all the money which Coras Iompair Penthouses is making from Spencer Dock they would of have plenty of cash to pay for these trains?

Afterall isn't this the reason why the Diabolical Docklands station is located in the middle of nowhere - to free up money for public transport?

murphaph

Transport21 Fan wrote:

One would think that with all the money which Coras Iompair Penthouses is making from Spencer Dock they would of have plenty of cash to pay for these trains?

Afterall isn't this the reason why the Diabolical Docklands station is located in the middle of nowhere - to free up money for public transport?

You'd think so wouldn't ya! But then again, they flogged off the Cabra cement depot while retaining a space for a station yet now there won't be any trains coming through the PPT to actually use it!

The railways need to be taken away from CIE property. There are too many conflicts of interest in CIE, why afterall does IE run 'roadliner'??

SeanW

MarkoP11 wrote:

What I have seen of the interior puts it well above the standard of even the new Cork intercity coaches
...
Japanese stiff suspension which aint nice

These cars should be good for the Sligo line becuase it's engineered like crap, and bouncy European type suspensions just don't do the business. The line is relatively straight however once you get out of the Dublin/Meath area.

So stiff is good.

craigybagel

Is anyone else worried about the length of the trains? Surely IE havent got enough to run them in anything longer than 6 car sets, and even then theyre only buying 10 as 6 cars. Ok so therell be more often but wont it be the same people travelling in the peak, only now theyll be going down from 7/8 often overcrowded Mk 3s to 6 Railcars. If theyre lucky. What are IE gonna do with 20 3 car sets.
Virgin in the UK went to a nationwide clockface DMU operated timetable a few years ago. The result? Severe overcrowding, terrible punctuality and a whole lot of unhappy customers.
Im worried...........

John R

MarkoP11 wrote:

What I have seen of the interior puts it well above the standard of even the new Cork intercity coaches

They are proper intercity coaches by design, its a new design so comparisons to other trains are not really worthwhile. The closest comparison is possibly the UK class 180 but with a smaller engine

:eek: As long as they don't have the reliability problems of the 180s, it took 3 years in service to get them working properly.

I know they are nothing to do with each other, thank god. Every single train Alstom has built recently have been complete disasters.

Are they DMU or DEMUs? Are there specs and pictures available yet?

John R

craigybagel wrote:

Is anyone else worried about the length of the trains? Surely IE havent got enough to run them in anything longer than 6 car sets, and even then theyre only buying 10 as 6 cars. Ok so therell be more often but wont it be the same people travelling in the peak, only now theyll be going down from 7/8 often overcrowded Mk 3s to 6 Railcars. If theyre lucky. What are IE gonna do with 20 3 car sets.

Run them in multiples presumably. 6 car sets aren't too bad really though, there are only 5-6 standard class coaches in most IE rakes so depending on the layout of these units there won't be a huge difference.

Short/medium length units can be a problem on lines with extreme peaks, it is too easy for operators to just run them as standard without properly accounting for the peak requirements. There are several lines in the UK where this has been an ongoing problem for years, the high cost of adding extra units to cover a small number of peak runs is the problem.

In some cases in the UK it was found that retaining a small number of older trains exclusively for peaktime specials was better than trying to cover everything with a fixed formation MU service.

In general a standardised service is preferable but particularly for the Friday/Sunday peaks some extra stock will be necessary on most IC routes.

craigybagel wrote:

Virgin in the UK went to a nationwide clockface DMU operated timetable a few years ago. The result? Severe overcrowding, terrible punctuality and a whole lot of unhappy customers.

Overall the cross-country service is much improved with those changes. The biggest failure by Virgin was a gross under-estimation of the increase in passengers they got due to increasing the frequency. Overall they provided much more capacity but the better services created a much higher demand. They ended up having to use 2x 5-car units on many of the services where they had originally planned on using one 4-car unit.

craigybagel

And places on the fringe of the network eg.Penzance, Aberdeen etc were left with the same amount of trains only 7 car HSTs were replaced with 4/5 voyagers. Other places like Portsmouth and Blackpool were left with no service at all!

Is tralees sole daily train going to be a 6 car railcar? Pity the poor people paying €60 return to travel on it. And then finding the platforms arent long enough.........

Chris_533976

The translation to all this is that the 200kmh trains are a PR stunt. We'll spend a fortune buying them and they wont be allowed to go full speed because of the slower trains on the line.

Genius

MarkoP11

The 200 kph trains are separate issue, there are at most 3 trains per hour beyond Port Laois, the line can take trains 7 minutes apart. Fairly simple to timetable to allow 200 kph trains. The current set up combines 75 mph and 90/100 mph trains same difference.

The 160 kph intercity DMU will be just fine for the purpose intended the bulk of the track they will travel won't even be 160 kph capable most of it is 120 kph

Our man in Havana

Are the remaining LC's on the Dublin-Cork route manual or automatic?

craigybagel

And those trains that do make it out on to the nice 200kmh Cork mainline will have litttle chance to even reach 160kmh as theyll be stopping at most points on their way to Limerick to replace stops in the Cork expresses. No for once i have to stand up for IE and say the speed of the DMUs, if nothing else, is appropriate for their job.

Of course this may change as going on recent form i wouldnt be surprised if IE decided to run its nice new Cork trains nonstop from Mallow to a new station in the old North Esk yard, 2 miles from Kent station, with promises of a lightrail link from a stop 500 yards from the new station back into the city, to be built a year after the new station opens. Just a thought...........