Summons to Appear in Court

bbability

Just wondering what is the exact timeframe a member of the Garda Siochana has to summons a person to court for an offence whether it be a Road Traffic Offence, Public Order Offence. I was sure it was 6 months??? If you are not summoned to appear in court in that timeframe can you be summoned after the 6 months? How long does it take for a member of the Gardai to prepare a summons. All of these questions are just for general information for the forum.

Mr Burns

I used to be a traffic warden so I can give you my take on it.

The summons must be prepared by me and signed by the clerk of the court within 6 months of the alleged offence. This does not mean the case must be heard within 6 months, only that the summons must be issued within the 6 month period.

The date of the court is specified on the summons can be any date into the future. The only limitation on this is that the summons must be served on the accused within the timeframes allowed. I served all mine by Registered post which requires the summons to be posted as to reach the accused with 21 days to go to the court. A declaration has to be completed by the person posting it (usually me) and a peace commisioner to say I served it within the time allowed. For Gardai I think they can serve it in person up to 7 days before the court.
So long as both conditions are met a garda/traffic warden can summons a person to a court 6 months to a year after the summons is issued and only serve it at the last minute. This practice was common where I worked due to workloads on ourselves and the local court.

I don't agree with this practice but thats what happened.

Eru

bbability wrote:

Just wondering what is the exact timeframe a member of the Garda Siochana has to summons a person to court for an offence whether it be a Road Traffic Offence, Public Order Offence. I was sure it was 6 months??? If you are not summoned to appear in court in that timeframe can you be summoned after the 6 months? How long does it take for a member of the Gardai to prepare a summons. All of these questions are just for general information for the forum.

The limitation is for the summons too be applied for within 6 months from the date of the offence. Please note that I said the limit is for applying. You can recieve the summons after the 6 months provided it was forwarded to the summons office in the four courts within 6 months.

I have had summons that have been applied for within 6 months but take another 5 or 6 months before being issued and served.

Mr Burns

I agree with that sort of time frame. I have never had to wait months for the summons to come back from the clerk. Usually I got them back within a week. I would then have to wait till within a month of the court before I could serve them. There was no point serving them too soon.

Eru

Serious backlog at the moment. Simple not enough staff or court time too cover the applications.

they are getting through the backlog slowly but surely.

mik_da_man

Just a Q on this one.

When a summons is served in person by a guard does it have to be served to the accused person on the summons?

Or could a guard simply drop the summons to the address?

Our man in Havana

They must either serve it on the accused (preferred option) or leave it with an adult at the address. It cannot be left in a letterbox afaik. Karlitosway1978 should be able to confirm.

Turner

It can be left at their address, if they ordinarilly reside there.

Most Gardai will know where all their local law breakers live.

Eru

As per above, but with the additional that it can also be your place of work so dont just dodge the summons in the hope.

Turner

True, very embarrassing if it gets served on you in work.

It can also be served on somebody who works with you, or as it says on the summons "

"servant, agent or clerk"

So if you are not in work when the Gards arrive, the gardai can serve it on your boss, colleague or the cleaning lady.

Our man in Havana

How would a garda know where someone worked? That could be very hard info to come by.

mik_da_man

And what if the summons is served to someone else
do they have to sign it/something to admit that it was served?

As for "ordinarilly reside there" what would qualify here i.e how long?

I'm wondering this cause My bro got a summons for no insurance (long story - not his fault)
Anyway he lives in dublin most of the time but the summons was served to our home address (not in dublin)

Cheers

Mik

Our man in Havana

He must be giving your address as his address. I would assume that it is up to the Gardai to establish the accused's correct address before charging him.

And what if the summons is served to someone else
do they have to sign it/something to admit that it was served?

Nope, the serving Garda has to make a declaration that he served the summons correctly before a peace commisioner. That is sufficient proof of service.

Turner

Generally if a summons is not served directly on a person and the court date comes up and the defendant is not present, the state will look for an adjournment and the judge will make an order that the defendant must be notified in person by a Garda.


Then again the judge might agree that the summons was served appropriately(where it was served on his mother or colleague) and convict in his absence.

It would be for the defendant to appeal this in a higher court.

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

How would a garda know where someone worked? That could be very hard info to come by.

Not really, most people when chatting will speak about familiar things such as work.

G: "what do you do for a living?

U: "Im a sparks/accountant"

G: "Oh yeah, I used to do that, who are you with?"

U: "ABC electrical/accountancy"
(****sparks/accountant picked at random, no reason****)

Alternatively we might know you through work such as doormen, security, etc. You may have called your boss for bail money or as an independent insurity. Maybe you called a colleague to collect you from the station or maybe a fmaily/friend member gives us the address when we call to your house for the 3rd time.

really Bond, if we couldnt get that simple information the prisons would be empty not overcrowded.

mik_da_man wrote:

Anyway he lives in dublin most of the time but the summons was served to our home address (not in dublin)

Then thats the address that he gave the Gardai as his permenent address, Im sure they didnt pick it out of a hat.

mik_da_man wrote:

I'm wondering this cause My bro got a summons for no insurance (long story - not his fault)

Of course its not his fault. How the hell can you 'accidentely' drive uninsured?

Our man in Havana

In my case no one in the local constabulary would have a clue where or what I do for a living!

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

In my case no one in the local constabulary would have a clue where or what I do for a living!

A, We aint a constabulary.

B, Because I presume, you have not been arrested, charged or summoned.

Our man in Havana

I still wouldn't tell them!

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

I still wouldn't tell them!

Ve have Vays off making you talk.

Turner

There is a thing called....

1. voters register
2. Social welfare dept
3. Census information
4. Garda intelligence (created from a simple registration check)
5. Neighbours!!!
6. Council housing list
7. Garda local knowledge.


Very unusual for a summons not to be served, and in most cases a bench or commital warrant issued which lasts for years, (cant remember how many)... queue karlitos...

Our man in Havana

2. Social welfare dept
3. Census information

The Gardai would not be allowed access to that!

Eru

Bench expires in 100 years but you can only be charged with a Section 13 offence within 6 months (summery).

Commital never expires unless you die but would be very, very surprised if a judge issued a commital on an actual summery case (as in you were summoned and not charged) unless you had previous a mile long.

General good practice is not too sentence in absense where a custodial sentence is on the cards but I have seen this trend change lately. the judges are sick of bench warrants and want cases done and dusted but they are just being appealed (which the defendent fails to appear at anyway because hes going to jail if he does )

Bond-007 wrote:

The Gardai would not be allowed access to that!

Your kidding right? :eek:

Of course we can access social welfare information. How do you think CAB operates?

Turner

Why not.

Gardai tip off thousands of people to social welfare who they find working in garages, pubs ect...


The one place the gardai know they can execute arrest warrants is the local "labour echange", because they know exactly what time and what place a certain type of person will be!!

Our man in Havana

Chief--- wrote:

Why not.

Gardai tip off thousands of people to social welfare who they find working in garages, pubs ect...


The one place the gardai know they can execute arrest warrants is the local "labour echange", because they know exactly what time and what place a certain type of person will be!!

Indeed!

What I meant was the census info is secert. The Gardai would not be able to access that surely?

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

Indeed!

What I meant was the census info is secert. The Gardai would not be able to access that surely?

Hmmm, as a Garda I have never even thought about it so I dont know but as a Joe Soap that got the form last week I think I saw a declaration on it which stated it was for statistical purposes only and would not be used in another way.

Turner

Fair nuff, leave out the census info so...

mik_da_man

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Of course its not his fault. How the hell can you 'accidentely' drive uninsured?

Well the car he normally drives for a business needed to be repaired @ the local garage.
his boss told him that he got the insurance transferred to the loan car, but it didn't have a current disk
Garda stopped him just after he drove out of the garage About 1/2 mile down the road there was a checkpoint.
Guard saw no disc, my bro explained the suitation, guard said to drop insurance to local office and he got a summons
guard was from one county, and local office in a different county

Eru

mik_da_man wrote:

guard was from one county, and local office in a different county

well that just proves what a pile of **** is being spoken here. Ever here of a wonderful thing called PULSE? Im not saying anymore, but your talking sd*t.

Actually, if its a company car wouldnt the driver have open insurance?????

micks

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

well that just proves what a pile of **** is being spoken here. Ever here of a wonderful thing called PULSE? Im not saying anymore, but your talking sd*t.

Actually, if its a company car wouldnt the driver have open insurance?????

How long is PULSE in operation ??
i used to live on kildare/dublin border and often came across garda form both side of the divide on the other side.i think (may be wrong ) that rathcoole was run by naas after hours.
i picked up his point as being that he was insured but had no disc so open driving would be irrelevant.He should have brought the original disc as the policy would have been correct even if the reg no wasn't.

as for Garda knowledge ........ i got a knock on the door one night from 2 of our finest wanting to inspect my gun lock up as part of "my gun licence renewal". When i explained that i dont and never have owned a gun they asked was i Joe Bloggs i said no i'm mick smith ,but i bought the house of Joe 4 years ago.When i asked was the licence not renewed every year surely you know he doesn't live here..... i got sorry to bother sir......


I have been told by several gardai not to accept summons (minor ones i mean traffic,parking etc) as they'll be returned to issueing gard who most likely wont bother re-issueing them? ......... never got to try it though.

Eru

micks wrote:

How long is PULSE in operation ??

1999. 7 years, I think its fair to assume this offence happened well into the 21st century.

micks wrote:

i used to live on kildare/dublin border and often came across garda form both side of the divide on the other side.i think (may be wrong ) that rathcoole was run by naas after hours.

Not sure what your point is. If a Garda in Dublin asks for your insurance too be produced you can produce in Donegal and all it takes is a 1 minute PULSE search for the Garda in Dublin to see if you have done it or not (hey, we even have phones!!)

micks wrote:

i picked up his point as being that he was insured but had no disc so open driving would be irrelevant.He should have brought the original disc as the policy would have been correct even if the reg no wasn't.

How the hell is open not relevent when being prosecuted for having no insurance? Please, think sensible.

micks wrote:

as for Garda knowledge ........ i got a knock on the door one night from 2 of our finest wanting to inspect my gun lock up as part of "my gun licence renewal". When i explained that i dont and never have owned a gun they asked was i Joe Bloggs i said no i'm mick smith ,but i bought the house of Joe 4 years ago.When i asked was the licence not renewed every year surely you know he doesn't live here..... i got sorry to bother sir.

A, why would these 2 Gardai know where he lives or where he moved too?
B, Maybe he supplied your address and thus the check?
C, Maybe they were checking the information he provided on his renewal, maybe he had used your address. Ever think that maybe someone, shock horror, lied to the police???

micks wrote:

I have been told by several gardai not to accept summons (minor ones i mean traffic,parking etc) as they'll be returned to issueing gard who most likely wont bother re-issueing them? ......... never got to try it though.

oooh, you cunnong devil. You have devised a cunning fool-proof way to avoid being prosecuted. Please dont tell the hardened criminal world of this ingenious method. Hey, are you the one that figured you wouldnt get summoned in the first place if you refused to give your name or gave 'Mickey Mouse;???

maidhc

micks wrote:

How long is PULSE in operation ??

Trick question

...they have realised they cant integrate it with the Schengen Information System now without causing it to break.

Eru

maidhc wrote:

Trick question

...they have realised they cant integrate it with the Schengen Information System now without causing it to break.

The 2 are unrelated, how is it a trick question and how does SIS effect the answer? PULSE is nationwide and has been in operation for years now.

I can find no mention of SIS not being compatible with PULSE but the link up is not expected for some time yet anyway.

I also querry why you brought this up, can we stay on topic?

Eru

maidhc wrote:

Trick question

...they have realised they cant integrate it with the Schengen Information System now without causing it to break.

The 2 are unrelated, how is it a trick question and how does SIS effect the answer? PULSE is nationwide and has been in operation for years now.

I can find no mention of SIS not being compatible with PULSE but the link up is not expected for some time yet anyway.

I also querry why you brought this up, can we stay on topic?

maidhc

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

I can find no mention of SIS not being compatible with PULSE but the link up is not expected for some time yet anyway.

I was told it by someone who knows and who deals with Phoenix park on such issues.

I was interested by your comment that:

Of course we can access social welfare information. How do you think CAB operates?

I presume access must be quite restricted since it is illegal for the Gardaí to use PPS numbers other than for Refugees and their own members.

As for going off topic... I have tried following the thread, but failed.

Eru

maidhc wrote:

I was told it by someone who knows and who deals with Phoenix park on such issues.

Ah the old relaible "I know what I know". In other words its a chinese whisper.

maidhc wrote:

I I presume access must be quite restricted since it is illegal for the Gardaí to use PPS numbers other than for Refugees and their own members.

Oh God Maidhc, we can all google social welfare. That use is as an unique identifyer. In other words, using it too identify a person in your computer system. GNIB can locate a persons records by PPS number. There is no function on PULSE for this. We can however contact social welfare.

we cannot look you up and tell what benefits you are claiming or what tax you are paying without reason, thats true but then again please remember, a Garda may access and sieze any and all materials that he/she reasonable believes may be evidence of a crime. Government agencies cannot claim privilege nor can the accused.

micks

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

1999. 7 years, I think its fair to assume this offence happened well into the 21st century.


Not sure what your point is. If a Garda in Dublin asks for your insurance too be produced you can produce in Donegal and all it takes is a 1 minute PULSE search for the Garda in Dublin to see if you have done it or not (hey, we even have phones!!)


How the hell is open not relevent when being prosecuted for having no insurance? Please, think sensible.


A, why would these 2 Gardai know where he lives or where he moved too?
B, Maybe he supplied your address and thus the check?
C, Maybe they were checking the information he provided on his renewal, maybe he had used your address. Ever think that maybe someone, shock horror, lied to the police???


oooh, you cunnong devil. You have devised a cunning fool-proof way to avoid being prosecuted. Please dont tell the hardened criminal world of this ingenious method. Hey, are you the one that figured you wouldnt get summoned in the first place if you refused to give your name or gave 'Mickey Mouse;???

PULSE - 7 yrs fair enough - but approx 2 yrs ago i produced licence /insurance and details were entered in "the Book" - yet a couple of months ago same again but my details were entered into computer (i assumed PULSE) but you'd know the difference.What was the problem integrating pen points into PULSE then?

I know of many peolple asked to produce details only to end up in court for failing to produce - obivously not on your watch.

I always assumed it was an offence not to have an insurance disc displayed regardless of insurance status - sorry i'll eat humble pie again.


A, why would these 2 Gardai know where he lives or where he moved too?
B, Maybe he supplied your address and thus the check?
C, Maybe they were checking the information he provided on his renewal, maybe he had used your address. Ever think that maybe someone, shock horror, lied to the police???

This is a classic - earlier in the thread you were saying you a gard could issue a summons to a place of work and that a gard would find out, yet here you dont see why a gard would know where someone who has a GUN would live.Not only has he a gun but he would have renewed his licence maybe 3 times in the 4 years since he left this address? ah its only a gun we'll check every couple of years if its ok??
If they were checking his details they'd of asked about him not "can i see where you store your gun sir" followed up by " you dont have a gun"
"are you not joe bloggs?"
If PULSE is so super suerly taking "1 minute" to look up someone details would be easier than making a trip to an address

Dont know what a cunnong devil is but maybe read that part of my post again i said for MINOR offences and yes it does work - maybe too busy maybe too lazy but they seldom re-issue a summons.

Eru

micks wrote:

PULSE - 7 yrs fair enough - but approx 2 yrs ago i produced licence /insurance and details were entered in "the Book" - yet a couple of months ago same again but my details were entered into computer (i assumed PULSE) but you'd know the difference.What was the problem integrating pen points into PULSE then?

Maybe PULSE was down???? Isnt your computer system ever down for maintenance or upgrades?

micks wrote:

I know of many peolple asked to produce details only to end up in court for failing to produce - obivously not on your watch.

Maybe they didnt produce but more importantly, what happened in court? Im betting no prosecution. Anyway, how do either of us prove they did or did not produce?

micks wrote:

I always assumed it was an offence not to have an insurance disc displayed regardless of insurance status - sorry i'll eat humble pie again.

Hmmmm, this thread is clearly speaking about driving without insurance, not for failing to display so yes, eat your pie as they are seperate offences. You cannot be guilty of having no insurance if you had insurance.

micks wrote:

This is a classic - earlier in the thread you were saying you a gard could issue a summons to a place of work and that a gard would find out, yet here you dont see why a gard would know where someone who has a GUN would live.Not only has he a gun but he would have renewed his licence maybe 3 times in the 4 years since he left this address? ah its only a gun we'll check every couple of years if its ok??
If they were checking his details they'd of asked about him not "can i see where you store your gun sir" followed up by " you dont have a gun"
"are you not joe bloggs?"
If PULSE is so super suerly taking "1 minute" to look up someone details would be easier than making a trip to an address

Oh man I dont know if you think your being smart and just not getting it or what. If someone is using your address we will call and verify that person does or does not live there. Doesnt that make sense? Have you ever heard of lodgers? rent? Guests? You are clearly aware that people move house. People do on occasion tell fibs to the Gardai. We must then check out the stories they tell us.

As for these Gardai knowing or not knowing, again you dont get it. They were called on the radio and told to call in and check for another Garda who was doing the paperwork. It wasnt for themselves, they didnt give a **** if you are a certain person or not but no, the conversation wouldnt begin by asking a name because by doing so we could allow you to cover for a friend. Instead we ask a straight question and by your answer they knew you were being honest or presumed you were.

micks wrote:

Dont know what a cunnong devil is but maybe read that part of my post again i said for MINOR offences and yes it does work - maybe too busy maybe too lazy but they seldom re-issue a summons.

Oh sweet maizy jaysus. what the Gardai do or not do after getting a returned summons isnt the issue (but its far easier to re issue a summons and apply for an additional one for supplying false name and/or address than it was to begin with) The point is you cannot simple "refuse" a summons. Its handed to you, you cannot simple turn your back, cover your ears and start chanting "no no no no no", it doesnt work. Even if you do the Garda will simple leave it on your doorstep, desk or wherever and make the declaration that you were served.
Honest too god, if it was that simple everyone would do it and Gardai wouldnt bother.

micks

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Oh man I dont know if you think your being smart and just not getting it or what. If someone is using your address we will call and verify that person does or does not live there. Doesnt that make sense? Have you ever heard of lodgers? rent? Guests? You are clearly aware that people move house. People do on occasion tell fibs to the Gardai. We must then check out the stories they tell us.

As for these Gardai knowing or not knowing, again you dont get it. They were called on the radio and told to call in and check for another Garda who was doing the paperwork. It wasnt for themselves, they didnt give a **** if you are a certain person or not but no, the conversation wouldnt begin by asking a name because by doing so we could allow you to cover for a friend. Instead we ask a straight question and by your answer they knew you were being honest or presumed you were.

Yes i take your point to an extent!
But mate i was in the house 4 yrs,i am from the area , i know that the previous owners had been shooting for years.My point is this wasn't an application for a licence it was a renewal and most likely a recurring renewal.i was in the house 4yrs - thats 3 or 4 renewals of the licence - how could his licence be renewed without checking the address for 4 yrs ??
He had changed every other "post address" ie bank,payslip,motor tax ......etc

as for covering for someone else how could i if they'd want to see the gun store ? - i can hardly say yes i am joe bloggs but i cant show the gun lock up at the moment.i just thought it was very lax - if they dont know where the legal guns are..............

mik_da_man wrote:

Well the car he normally drives for a business needed to be repaired @ the local garage.
his boss told him that he got the insurance transferred to the loan car, but it didn't have a current disk
Garda stopped him just after he drove out of the garage About 1/2 mile down the road there was a checkpoint.
Guard saw no disc, my bro explained the suitation, guard said to drop insurance to local office and he got a summons
guard was from one county, and local office in a different county

on the insurance issue the original post said that his employer transferred the insurance and i dont think he mentioned a conviction ,just the fact he got summoned?
he also mentions the fact of NO DISC . i am way off the mark on that am i not?

Eru

micks wrote:

Yes i take your point to an extent!
But mate i was in the house 4 yrs,i am from the area , i know that the previous owners had been shooting for years.My point is this wasn't an application for a licence it was a renewal and most likely a recurring renewal.i was in the house 4yrs - thats 3 or 4 renewals of the licence - how could his licence be renewed without checking the address for 4 yrs ??
He had changed every other "post address" ie bank,payslip,motor tax ......etc

I see your point, it was shoddy too have not checked each year but thats whoever renewed the previous years not the Gardai at your door.

micks wrote:

on the insurance issue the original post said that his employer transferred the insurance and i dont think he mentioned a conviction ,just the fact he got summoned?
he also mentions the fact of NO DISC . i am way off the mark on that am i not?

He said the summons was for no insurance. He doesnt say if its no disc but from what I read I presumed he failed to produce the disc (or is claiming he did but Gardai ****ed up) and as a result the Garda has summoned for no insurance. Maybe Im wrong but I cant see anyone being so bored or have that much time on their hands that they would summons a person for no display on a rental after they produced valid insurance.

Maybe thats just me.

vector

>the summons must be prepared by me and signed by the clerk of the court
the chief clerk or any clerk?
the district court or circuit court?

>A declaration has to be completed by the person posting it (usually me) and a peace commisioner
who pays the PC his EUR 3;) to sign the statutory declaration of service and who pays the EUR 4.50 for reg post

Our man in Havana

District court clerk and it can be any clerk afaik.

The prosecutor ie the gardai or county council have to pay for the PC and the reg post.

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

District court clerk and it can be any clerk afaik.

Its supposed to be the clerk sitting in the court that the summons applies too. IE, Clerk in 44 should not sign a summons for 53 or 40, etc.

They will but their proceedures say they shouldnt and it doesnt effect the legality.