How to beat VERY loose games?

Imposter

I'd like some opinions on this. I was playing 4/8 limit but this could possibly apply to NL and all forms of poker (albeit with a few adjustments)!

Are very loose games actually beatable by playing ABC poker? All the books tell us that is you play tight solid poker you should beat these games in the long run.

Assume a game where you've got pretty much no folding equity (unless you are playing super super tight and even then the blinds get you and people may start to fold more so pots are smaller when you win). Most flops are taken 5+ handed at a 9 handed table.

So let's take a common situation: You get a very good hand let's say AA. In early position a raise might serve to get you 'only' 3 or 4 callers (on a 9 handed table). In late position a raise will get rid of noone who has limped or called raises unless there's been a raise one or 2 places before you. So let's say you get 5 callers. The chances of winning this hand ain't good! With the 3 callers (assuming 2 random hands and one hand with anything suited, broadway or a pair) you're a 59% chance. Against the 5 callers (assuming 3 random and 2 suited/broadway/pair hands you're a 46% chance. With say 3 going ot the river this could still be profitable but not by much seeing as you'll have to fold it opccasionally.

That's with AA. If you play a few other hands then you get even worse odds than those. With no folding equity, broadway hands are loss makers as you generally have to fold them when you don't hit the flop. Betting them when they hit wins you a little but you lose often enough by betting them and getting callers who go on to catch a second pair or whatever.

Most pocket pairs can only be played for set value and suited connecters may or may not be a good idea but that's a matter of odds after the flop (and if you're drawing to anything you're usually getting the odds to call at least).

A hand that is capped preflop usually has 4 or 5 players having a look at the flop! What range of hands does it make sense to play with here (assuming you're pretty sure it'll be capped eventually)?

I'm thinking playing this game is way more gambling than skill and while there are edges that may be exploited they are nowhere near big enough compared to the variance in the game. I'm thinking they may not even be big enough to beat the rake which is one big blind a hand.

Opinions? How would you play in this game?

Hectorjelly

These games are easy to beat, but you need to have a totally different approach to normal games. In any game if 6 people regularly see the flop then hand values change drastically, top pair isnt worth a great deal. Just improve your hand reading skills and get used to folding a lot.

With pocket pairs like AA, you can either get used to folding them a lot, or just open push preflop. In games like this you dont need to worry about deception or creating a mixed strategy - just play honestly.

pok3rplaya

Tighten up
Don't semibluff
TP goes down in value (but not as much as you might think)
Sets go up in value
Bet out a lot, play your hands strong and fast
Drawing hands go up in value (you get drawing odds a lot and get payed off easily when you hit)

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

These games are easy to beat, but you need to have a totally different approach to normal games. In any game if 6 people regularly see the flop then hand values change drastically, top pair isnt worth a great deal. Just improve your hand reading skills and get used to folding a lot.

With pocket pairs like AA, you can either get used to folding them a lot, or just open push preflop. In games like this you dont need to worry about deception or creating a mixed strategy - just play honestly.

This is a wild 4-8 limit game, it is probably correct to never fold AA, and it is almost certainly beatable if there is a €4 rake.

Sangre

If your AA raise is getting 4 callers then its not a big enough raise. Doesn't matter if you're seethrough if they still call.

cardshark202

Sangre wrote:

If your AA raise is getting 4 callers then its not a big enough raise. Doesn't matter if you're seethrough if they still call.

Limit

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

This is a wild 4-8 limit game, it is probably correct to never fold AA, and it is almost certainly beatable if there is a €4 rake.

I should of mentioned I was only talking about no limit

NickyOD

You can't compere no Limit to limit regardless of how loose it is. In limit any hand worth playing is worth raising. In a very loose NL/PL game like HJ said your hand values decrease rapidly but also the implied odds of certain multiway hands increase so its probably best to play passive, try and see as many cheap flops as you can.

kickintheteeth

Was in the SE on friday nite for the first time. Went in at ten, and a pot limit hold-em game got going at about 11.
Full table, after a few rounds, i found out that at least 6 of the other players were retards. I cant tell u how many times high card won hands(in raised pots). started with €100, left at 3am with €400.
there was only one reason for this, i got AA four times in that time, raised preflop for all of them. And all 4 held up!
1.rasie to €10, few callers, raised flop, all folded.
2.raised to €12, MP all in for €40, BB all in for €120, i call, MP(99), BB(KK)
3.raise to €12, two callers, A on flop, all check. bet 20 on turn, small stack called, then got his last €30 on river, he didn't show!
4.I reraised to €30 preflop, after €12 raise, called. 10 high flop, took his last €50, he had QQ.

I'd say i won 2 or 3 other small pots, but those 4 hands were it really, with the stack i had i made a few moves, trying to bluff these guys, absolutely no point, got called everytime. So if it wasn't for my god given luck, i really don't know how i would have beaten these guys!

theslick

Have played a little bit of limit recently. Found the same as you with the 9 handed tables. The 6 handed tables are much better - faster too.

fuzzbox

NickyOD wrote:

In limit any hand worth playing is worth raising.

This is not really true. Cutting your implied odds in limit by raising the pot with 45s can be a mistake.
Also - raising 44 on the button after 4 limpers, is a mistake also.

Why pay more to see a flop, when you can get in for one bet. Your implied odds are much reduced in limit, so you dont want to increase the initial cost too often.

In a loose game, Ax suited takes a big jump in value, big offsuit broadways go down, and suited connectors and pairs go up.

In a tight game, SCs and small pairs go down in value, and big cards go up.

Imposter

fuzzbox wrote:

This is not really true. Cutting your implied odds in limit by raising the pot with 45s can be a mistake.
Also - raising 44 on the button after 4 limpers, is a mistake also.

Would you raise with AK, AQ or other big hands here on or near the button? Where do you start raising with pairs?

From this game a raise will get a lot of callers but will get rid of noone except maybe the small blind. It also doesn't buy you the button as often as it should if one or two places from the button.

fuzzbox

Imposter wrote:

Would you raise with AK, AQ or other big hands here on or near the button? Where do you start raising with pairs?

From this game a raise will get a lot of callers but will get rid of noone except maybe the small blind. It also doesn't buy you the button as often as it should if one or two places from the button.

AKs and AQs are MONSTER hands in this sort of game. Stick them in LMP or LP and we have a great hand, and yes - I would raise for value.

However - Continuation betting is a waste of time. Dont put a penny in postflop unless you hit something good. If you do hit something good then ram and jam.

Try to avoid paying off turn and river check/raises with one-pair hands.
Hit flushes a lot .... they are good.

Rnger

fuzzbox wrote:

Hit flushes a lot .... they are good.

No one can disagree with this, excellent advice!