Legal expenses involved after child assaulted

deisemum

My 9 year old son was assaulted (thumped and jabbed in the ribs) on a number of occasions by a teacher (witnessed by other children, some of whom were also thumped). The Gardai are involved now and are extremely helpful and strongly recommended having them investigate this. My concerns are what expenses could be involved if the matter goes any further. Hubby and I have had veiled threats from Principal who's tried to sweep it under the carpet. The BOM chaired by the Parish Priest are more interested in the school's so called reputation than the safety and welfare of the pupils. The whole can of worms and the proverbial has hit the fan. That I can deal with but I'm concerned on what expenses we could face.

I fully accept that all opinions are not legal advice and agree that I will not rely on them as such.

hullaballoo

*Bumpeh*

Jumpy

Im not entirely sure that anyone wants to touch this.

Gray

If the Gardai are investigating this as a criminal matter you should not be liable for any costs. However if you were to sue the school for negligence you could be liable if your case failed.
Personaly if this was my child & the BOM & Principle were trying to play it down I would move my son to another school straight away & make sure every one new why

DublinWriter

If the guards are involved, then it's a criminal matter, and it will be up to the DPP to press charges. You'll just be called as a witness, the state will be the plaintif.

You would only pay expenses if you were taking an independant civil case, which you can do independantly of any case brought by the DPP.

Our man in Havana

Can a person bring a private prosecution if the DDP got cold feet?

hullaballoo

Jumpy wrote:

Im not entirely sure that anyone wants to touch this.

No, it was deleted, so when I undeleted it, it was way back in the order for last posts. So I bumped it. It's fine to "touch" it now.

DublinWriter

Bond-007 wrote:

Can a person bring a private prosecution if the DDP got cold feet?

Yup, the two cases are largely unrelated.

dermot_sheehan

Bond-007 wrote:

Can a person bring a private prosecution if the DDP got cold feet?

Yes, private prosecutions can only be brought summarily though, for a case to proceed to indictment (i.e. tried by jury with a possibility of a prison sentence of more then 1 year) the state must indict. The private prosecutor is given the wonderful title "The common informer".

If this is a criminal manner brought by the state, then no costs are at risk of being awarded against the OP. If sue for battery though, face costs being awarded against if you lose.

deisemum

Thanks for all the replies. It has settled my mind and removed the fear of seeking justice due to costs. I must say the Gardai have been fantastic so far.

maidhc

deisemum wrote:

Thanks for all the replies. It has settled my mind and removed the fear of seeking justice due to costs.

Is that an intelligent position to take though? Suing a teacher is really a bit of a mountain to climb, not to mention the credibility issues surrounding child wittnesses (from the other side of the fence I know a teacher who was entirely falsely accused by a child of thumping him... although I am not for a second saying your child is lying, it is just a fact which must be recognised).

Maybe as mentioned below writing a stiff letter the school inspector (teachers can be dismissed this way, and it does happen.. although it requires more than one complaint) and moving your child is the easier option and less stressful for all concerned.

deisemum

My son wasn't the only child who was hit by this teacher, plus it happened on more than one occasion. Since we first contacted the Principal (who didn't deal with it) this teacher's daughter who is also in my son's class has been bullying my son and this hasn't been addressed either. Why should this teacher be allowed behave as he has?

Our man in Havana

I support you 110% in your efforts. You should get some parents on side and contact the inspector. Together with a police probe should yield results.

maidhc

deisemum wrote:

My son wasn't the only child who was hit by this teacher, plus it happened on more than one occasion. Since we first contacted the Principal (who didn't deal with it) this teacher's daughter who is also in my son's class has been bullying my son and this hasn't been addressed either. Why should this teacher be allowed behave as he has?

He shouldn't, no question, but for the sake of the child moving him would be a good thing to do.

Make sure you get good legal advice before proceeding down the civil litigation route (if that is what you plan). All I am saying is such cases against teachers and schools have a very poor track record of success, and there is little point in becoming a martyr for the cause.

It will not cost anything to make strong representations to the Dept of Ed, and may result in the teacher being dismissed.

The_Minister

When you say thump, what do you mean? Hard or playful? Causing pain?
I had a teacher who used to lightly thump us when we were talking. It wasn't sore and he never ment any harm by it.

deisemum

We don't want to take a civil case. Our son doesn't want to go to another school because he doesn't want to leave his friends. Our other son is happy there as well. Most of the other teachers are good teachers.

hullaballoo

How can a grown man "playfully" thump a young child?

The fact of the matter is that no teacher should ever raise his or her fist to one of his or her pupils - it is absolutely outside their remit in terms of rearing the child.

Edit: I really don't think that deisemum came here in order to have to defend herself against a crowd of cynics. I think you all should be a little more sensitive to her.

deisemum

The thumps and jabs hurt my son enough that he ended up crying. He's not a wimp either and he plays rugby and hurling so is used to fairly hard physical contact.

maidhc

deisemum wrote:

We don't want to take a civil case.

No charge or costs will be incurred then.

deisemum wrote:

Our son doesn't want to go to another school because he doesn't want to leave his friends. Our other son is happy there as well. Most of the other teachers are good teachers.

Making too much of a fuss without the support of those teachers, may well be counterproductive. If the teacher is a known menace, then this shouldnt be an issue, but if the teachers side with the other teacher, you son could well loose out in the long run. Teachers, like gardaí, doctors, and everyone else are human, and may well make just that little bit less effort explaining things to your child.

The_Minister

deisemum wrote:

The thumps and jabs hurt my son enough that he ended up crying. He's not a wimp either and he plays rugby and hurling so is used to fairly hard physical contact.

Thats different then.

hullaballoo

Unfortunately, maidhc is right in this regard. However, if the other teachers in the school could be so biased, and side with someone who has been hurting your son, then it would be your best option to take him out of the school.

Obviously, this is more common sense advice than anything legal-based, but it would seem the prudent approach to take your son out of the school irrespective of the outcome of the garda investigation. There are plenty of very decent schools around, and it wouldn't be hard for a young lad like your son to build up another solid base of friends. He might even thank you in the long-run.

I'm speaking from my own experience here; when I was initially sent to secondary school, I went to a particularly lackadaisical school where I started to get bad results and a nasty accent. Then one day out of the blue, my mum said, "right, you're going to this school instead" and scooted me off to St. Gerard's in Bray. I couldn't have been more gutted at the time, but once I settled in and lost the accent, I was made up! I thank my mother every day for making that choice for me.

deisemum

Thanks for all the advice. Believe me we've agonised over this. We approached the Principal on a number of occasions but it was like a carpet showroom. I wouldn't expect other teachers to speak out against this teacher as he's a colleague. According to a direct family member who has taught in this school he was not liked by most of his colleagues but that's hearsay. I don't want to say too much on specifics for fear of identifying the school. We'll just take things one step at a time.

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

Can a person bring a private prosecution if the DDP got cold feet?

DublinWriter wrote:

Yup, the two cases are largely unrelated.

Thats not correct, private prosecutions are from the days of common law and while they still exist they are extremely rare and will very rarely (im not aware of any recent exceptions) be accepted by a court when a state prosecution has already been examined.

The reasoning being primarily that its the states place to punish criminals and more importantly, all prosecutions must be in the interests of justice and the good of the public. A victim prosecuting in a criminal trial is a no no and I know that judges will not even allow Gardai to prosecute cases themselbes where they are named as the injured party.

hullaballoo

I'm afraid your sources have misinformed you Karlitosway. It's perfectly viable for a private person to take a criminal prosecution if the DPP don't. The only reason that it's uncommon is because of the costs. A private person taking such a case will have to foot the bill no matter what the outcome and they can be expensive, so people tend to avoid it.

maidhc

hullaballoo wrote:

I'm afraid your sources have misinformed you Karlitosway. It's perfectly viable for a private person to take a criminal prosecution if the DPP don't. The only reason that it's uncommon is because of the costs. A private person taking such a case will have to foot the bill no matter what the outcome and they can be expensive, so people tend to avoid it.

It can be done, but very unviable. I forget the details of the action (common informer action or something?). I remember a guy in cork brought such a private prosecution against a garda, but was treated with amused contempt by the court.

Add to this the fact they is no possibility of getting damages + a higher standard of proof is required + there are generally good reasons for the DPP not bringing a prosecution, and it is easy to see why the action isnt used... and better that way, because:

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Its the states place to punish criminals and more importantly, all prosecutions must be in the interests of justice and the good of the public

Eru

Hull,
I wasnt suggesting its impossible but merely since common law has been replaced by statute the courts will now refuse to hear prosecution evidence from a person personally connected to a case.

As above, justice not revenge.

rsynnott

To be honest, if at all possible, moving him to another school would be a good idea. If the school is taking the attitude they seem to be, that's a defect in the school, not just the one teacher.

Trojan911

Firespinner wrote:

When you say thump, what do you mean? Hard or playful? Causing pain?

Irrespective, no person should assault another without good & reasonable cause. A teacher on a child is inexcusable, period. Push for a prosecution and maximise the publicity and also maximise the fact that it is trying to be covered up by the school & local clergy.

TJ911...

Eru

Trojan911 wrote:

Irrespective, no person should assault another without good & reasonable cause. A teacher on a child is inexcusable, period. Push for a prosecution and maximise the publicity and also maximise the fact that it is trying to be covered up by the school & local clergy.

TJ911...

Hold on now Trojan, Fire asked if it was playful and how hard. They are important questions when considering an assault charge.

Its a reasonable excuse that you did not intend too harm the person but were being playful and presumed the person would not object or alternatively, if you used so little force that a reasonable person would not have suffered pain or ill effect.

padser

1) its never a reasonable excuse for a fully grown man, a teacher, to 'playfully' thump a child. And if he did, he deserves everything that comes his way for sheer stupidity, considering the state of things in this country at the moment.

2) Afaik when it comes to assault charges, its not the 'reasonable man' test with regard to the victim. I think you must take your victim as you find them. Thus if you hit someone and it turns out they have an 'eggshell' for a skull and you do serious damage its your problem for hitting them, not theirs for being 'unreasonable' in being so fragile. Maybe someone with a fresher memory of criminal law can confirm that (or reject it)?

3) I also seem to remember that an assault is an assualt regardless of the amount of force used? Ie if you touch someone, or threaten them its an assault? Its not a defence to say I only intended to 'hit them gently'?

Thirdfox

Eggshell skull rule is still in application afaik - I'm studying criminal law right now... example case would be R v. Blaue (I know it's an English case!)

Assault is any type of contact, no matter how light... of course if someone tried to sue you for a tap on the shoulder the court would throw out the case

Siun

I will probably get a lot of people telling me that this is terrible advice but it is the best I can give you.... A family in the town I come from took a case against the principle of the school. The principal in fairness did hit the child but to be honest the young lad was a complete pup! I don't agree with the hitting & maybe your son is extremely well behaved but unless you have the mothers of these other sons behind you in full view of your friends & neighbours then I can't stress strongly enough that you should leave it be. I know that you are mad. I don't have children but even if someone hurt one of my sisters I'd be so angry... the reason I say leave it is because the family I spoke of earlier didn't win the case.. I've no idea about legal costs but they were shunned in the town... they have since moved away eventhough the grandparents still lived there & they after all the trouble they only got a name for being trouble makers... the fact that you have highlighted to the community that this principal is a disgrace should be enough for you. I guarantee you like the family at home everyone is talking about it... if it's your son you are really worried about then I'd be happy enough that he won't be hit again, everyone knows it wasn't his fault because it wasn't the first time & I'd honestly let it be. I bet the family in our town didn't realise that the principal would get every upstanding, respected person in the community to go as character witnesses! These things are very delicate as you well know at this stage - I can only give my opinion & that is ... let it go... it'll be the toughest thing you'll every do but your son is so young... do you want him to have this attached to him at school? You are probably raging reading this but it will only end in tears if you take on the principal of a local school.. & you'll mark my words they won't be his tears... Sorry...

Thirdfox

Perhaps one could (hypothetically of course) post up notices saying that the person is a disreputable person who beat a child etc.

If he wants to take a defamation action against you... see him in court and counter sue?

padser

Thirdfox wrote:

Perhaps one could (hypothetically of course) post up notices saying that the person is a disreputable person who beat a child etc.

If he wants to take a defamation action against you... see him in court and counter sue?

Thats actually something I was wondering about recently, it been a couple of years since we did defamation (and even then we only touched on it). Anyway my question was, if you defame somebody, and are up in court. Do you have to prove that what you said was true. Or does it have to be proven by the plaintiff that what you said was untrue?? Or, since its a civil case is it simply the balance of probabilities with regard the accuracy of the comment/notice in question?

Thirdfox

If defendant pleads justification then they have to prove truth.

Fair comment needs some factual basis.

Qualified privilege needs both a duty to publish and an interest of the public to receive the information (even if it turns out to be false).

Best bet would be to use qualified privilege (from my knowledge as a normal person - I don't know how particular legal cases have dealt with this type of issue). Say as a parent you have a duty to warn other parents that their child may be abused (don't know if this will stand up in court though).

Ireland is pro-plaintiff right now - it is very hard for a defendant to prove on the balance of probabilities that the allegations are true.

So only need to prove truth if using justification as a defence.

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Hold on now Trojan, Fire asked if it was playful and how hard. They are important questions when considering an assault charge.

Its a reasonable excuse that you did not intend too harm the person but were being playful and presumed the person would not object or alternatively, if you used so little force that a reasonable person would not have suffered pain or ill effect.

Thankfully Padser saved me the time to reply, I second his/her reply @ #30..


TJ911...

Skyuser

You should go to the papers with this, get it more public and sue them. If this was in America, the teacher would probably have been sued til he was homeless n then given the electric chair. lmao.

Victor

Thirdfox wrote:

Perhaps one could (hypothetically of course) post up notices saying that the person is a disreputable person who beat a child etc.

If he wants to take a defamation action against you... see him in court and counter sue?

WEll thats one way to prejudice a prosecution and het it thrown out. :rolleyes:

DublinWriter

Thirdfox wrote:

Perhaps one could (hypothetically of course) post up notices saying that the person is a disreputable person who beat a child etc.

If he wants to take a defamation action against you... see him in court and counter sue?

That sounds like a typical lawyer's piece of advice - Why have only one case on the go, when you can have two!

hullaballoo

DublinWriter wrote:

That sounds like a typical lawyer's piece of advice - Why have only one case on the go, when you can have two!

No, it's still just one action.

Thirdfox

Haven't done "prejudicing a prosecution" yet. What does that entail? Is this something that will be covered by Evidence or Jurisprudence?

Moi? Sounding like a typical lawyer? I shall take that as a compliment!

hullaballoo

If you counter-sue, you take your case in the same action as the person who sues you. Otherwise, it would just be two separate cases. I don't know the details of it though.

Victor

Thirdfox wrote:

Haven't done "prejudicing a prosecution" yet. What does that entail? Is this something that will be covered by Evidence or Jurisprudence?

If you taint all the witnesses and potential jurors by telling them about the case, its rather difficult to proceed with an impartial case.

Hence judges have been known to put restrictions on newspapers in certain cases.

Black Dog

Dear Deisemum,

I have only very recently registered on Boards.ie and have only now seen this thread.

I am a primary school principal and, so, am familiar with the rules, regulations and practices in primary schools.

First of all, there is a complaints procedure established by agreement between the Dept. of Education, the teachers' union and the management bodies for dealing with such issues. The principal in the school should give you a copy of this procedure when requested.

Any contact you have had to date with the principal and teacher seem to have been verbal. For your complaint to be acted on you should put it in writing - to the Chairperson of the Board of Management. Outline the events succinctly and the fact that you have spoken to the principal on numerous occasions and have not received a reasonable response.

The Board of Management is obliged to investigate your complaint.

Your child has the right to go to school and not suffer this abuse. You have the right to make a complaint and have it investigated.

Best wishes to you in this situation.

PCPhoto

OP - i think you need to keep in contact with the gardai - to find out whats happening (ie. if the DPP decide to proceed etc)

Personally if I was in your situation I would not move my child and would record/document every time an incident happens and encourage your child to do the same - this will help if required for a prosecution.

NO TEACHER is permitted to touch a child - the school are only concerned about their reputation .... how many other times has this happened and they managed to give them hush money ?

I believe you should also contact a solicitor to get the best advice on how to proceed with a Civil Action - both the teacher and the school/BOM and maybe the principal are at fault.

EDIT: forgot to mention: keep all correspondance with school by letter or email (and keep a copy), direct any phonecalls to your solicitor. (if someone wants to discuss the matter tell them to put it in a letter or contact your solicitor)

McCrack

You are three years too late on this Black Dog!!

With regard to what you say however if the assault is sufficiently serious and in that I mean if it is any way indecent and/or physical amounting to injury I would have no hesitation advising a parent/guardian to make a formal complaint to the Garda and start civil proceedings.

The complaints procedure you describe would take a very back-seat I'm afraid.

Black Dog

McCrack,

I should have opened my eyes and spotted the dates of postings before replying. There's a great start to my postings on Boards.ie. Just shows you, these teachers don't know it all!

Just adding re complaints procedure: if civil proceedings do go ahead it would be important to be able to point out that the normal complaints procedures had been used.

IIMII

You can also delete posts Black Dog, under the edit option

deisemum

Gosh this is a bit of a bolt out of the blue. We'd put it behind us now that it has been sorted.

Well the Gardai were very good and were in no doubt that this thug teacher assaulted our son as well as others. Once the Gardai got involved we haven't had any further problems with the school, they also dealt with the principal for his threatening behaviour towards us so much so that if the principal as much as sees me he turns on his heel and flees not that I see him that often.

The Gardai sent a file to the DPP but they decided not to go ahead with it as it was about 18+ months after the assaults came to light to us but unfortunately we didn't report it to the Gardai until it was outside the statute of limitation. I believe the statute of limitation is 6 months or something like that. However the teacher is now known to the Gardai and so many people in the local community know what happened.

Back then I knew it was only a matter of time before we'd hear of similar allegations regarding this teacher and sure enough I stumbled across a similar case on another website but eventually found out that it was the same teacher and the parent also was subjected to the same threats from the principal who lied and stated that there had never been another complaint about this teacher and if she didn't stop with her nonsense he'd report her to social services (he did the same with me and said he'd accuse me of child abuse in my home but that didn't frighten me as I know local social workers on a social and professional level).

However this time the pupil had recorded some of the abuse (had gone on for a number of years) on his mobile phone which was horrific plus the teacher had slandered the family, also recorded and the mother got a solicitor involved.

Anyway the teacher involved is married to someone with money and the mother accepted hush money and handed over her son's mobile phone with the evidence and signed some disclaimer forms. Thing is so many people including local media know about the payoff as it was the talk outside so many schools plus staffrooms in other schools, gaa pitches, some gardai, pubs you name it.

I heard the principal is retiring next month much to the relief to so many including staff. My son is nearly finished 1st year and is enjoying it and is very happy in himself. I'm glad I went to the Gardai and had it reported so that in itself has established history if any further allegations ever come to the attention of the gardai.

My advice to any parent who are faced with a similar assault by a teacher on their child is to go straight to the Gardai as they are the ones who are responsible for dealing with crime, not teachers, BOMs, Parish Priests. Let the BOM, Dept of Education do their own investigation if they want because if a parent doesn't bother going to the Gardai then the BOM/Dept of Education will drag out their investigation like they did with us until it's way outside the statute of limitation.

I've since met adults some of whom are in their late teens early 20's who were former pupils of this teacher and some of the things they witnessed at the fists of this teacher were horrific.

He's never even been suspended pending any investigation and is still "teaching" and will be for some years yet.