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Catholic Church - Four Cardinal Sins
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07-04-2006 5:57pm#1
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Akrasia wrote:Um, I didn't ask the question and I didn't make the answer up.
Just because they don't fit in with your religous views doesn't mean they aren't a part of the views of other people. You're a pantheist, not a catholic.
No genuine Catholic on this board would reply with an answer like you did. You're hoping and attempting to portray catholicism as something that, in this day and age, to actual catholics, it simply is not.
And no, I may not be catholic, but that doesn't stop me finding your subversive antics risible.
Oh, but I can -- Denied!LapLandBoy wrote:But surely you can't denyChristianity has always been about punishment - to deny this would be silly.
Says you, you silly moo, you.
Check Rev Hellfire's post for some enlightenment on the issue, eh?0 -
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Well, for one thing, you might be surprised how many people the word of God reaches, through human means or otherwise. No religion can truly be 'forced' on anyone. There is nothing stopping anyone simply going through the motions of something they don't actually believe in. I'm sure Excelsior could tell you a story or two of people who've had dreams which account for their conversion to christianity.Tar.Aldarion wrote:If you are not baptised you go to hell.
If you are a country where another religion is forced on you or if you have never had any contact with a christian, you go to hell then etc.
I wouldn't call that no-one?
Perhaps this is where my own beliefs differ from catholic doctrine; if someone lived a life whereby through no fault of their own they were never exposed to christianity whatsoever, I think this would therefore not constitute any rejection of God on their part; perhaps they have just yet to be introduced. I don't think hell is their destination. I say this time and time again; such speculation as to the afterlife is in all probability so far off the mark so as to be pointless.
I'm on about his intentions in posting that. While those may be the sins themselves; not many catholics will tell you that those punishments will be dealt you for commiting them. IMO it's an attempt at mis-representation on his part; evidently one that you are only too willing to defend. The church is ever-evolving and my generation (I've been to catholic mass since I was a kid) was not taught to believe in these 'punishments'. So what he is putting up as the subject of his derision is not in fact generally taught today, at least in the schools and churches I've been to. I'm no expert, I'm just defending the church I know, and I don't think he could honestly claim that he's criticising the church he knows, either. Mightn't stop him, though :rolleyes:What are you on about?
People believe in that list and it is correct.
You're quite correct to say that humans, in general, fail to abide by what they believe they should. But this is not always the case. Some people look at what they habitually do do, and decide that that's what they should be doing. How convenient. These are naturally the same ones who would take offence to any christian who preaches that all men (and hence them included) are sinners. Anyway, yes, people fail to perfectly abide by religious rules, why should this be any reason not to try?Of course, yet, Jesus, or their doctrine, did not tell them to do thei. It is human err.
The reason I am not for religions in general that nearly all humans can't abide by what they choose to believe.
And other people (not necessarily you), use that fact to persecute religion and religious people. In the name of opposing the 'evil' of religion. is that different?They also use it for persecution and to do something 'in the name of God' made it alright.
Agreed. People do it, religion or no. Perhaps, though, it does allow them to get away with it more often than they otherwise would.This however, is not the religion's fault.0 -
Whoa there, calm down, breath. Ask yourself this - do you know anything about the history of catholicism?Laplandman wrote:Are you serious?!
Do you know anything about the history of catholicism?
And not for a second have I denied thatThis list has been knocking about in one shape or another since at least the 4th Century C.E.
Past tense. But, eh, no, would you care to prove you are? Elaborate, man, elaborate, for fecks' sake!Are you familiar at all with the relic-ridden, scholastic extravagances which have underpinned church doctrine for centuries?
Certainly, what about them?Ever heard of Bonaventure, Columbanus, Aquinas?
Let me ask you a question. Why would a man whose t-shirt attempts to say "genius at work", spend all his time watching a children's cartoon show?How can you begin to entertain the notion that capital sin, cardinal sin, mortal sin, deadly sin, original sin and god knows how many other purported paths to oblivion have not nor continue to be aspects of the Church, and are imbricated in a ritualism which preserves the trappings (whether by external means, or discipline introjected) of a punitive medievalism predicated on mortificatory reprimand and severe censure?
Again, you have gravely misunderstood it all. The idea of sin, in all it's forms is indeed an aspect of the RC church and alway has been. You'd sound very confused indeed to you talk as if I do not recognise that fact.
Lip-gloss?What kind of a gloss are you trying to put on things at all at all?
Lip gloss FTW.0 -
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Akrasia wrote:it's your opinion about what proportion catholicism favours forgiveness versus punishment. You appear to be from the U.K., so maybe you are not aware of the very recent Irish past, where women who had made the 'sin' of getting pregnant outside of wedlock or for being sexually abused or for being mentally challenged, had their children taken off them and were sent to workhouses where they lived as slaves to attone for their sins. It is estimated that up to 30,000 women were sent to these institutions in the early 20th century. These institutions operated right up until 1999. they're not ancient history.
Industrial schools run by orders of the catholic church were also strictly focused on punishment as a central part of Catholic doctrine. Purgatory was taught as a central part of cathechism when i was in school, and we were asked in every mass, to pray for the souls of the recently departed so that their sins may be forgiven and they might get into heaven.
You might say that these aren't a reflection of catholic doctrine. But they clearly were, at least where in Ireland up to the very recent past when the Catholic church has been forced to present itself as more open minded and liberal in reaction to plummetting numbers in their seminaries and a reduction in political power in a more secular Ireland.
Cruel to be kind?
I'm not denying that the church, in the past has done horribly heavy-handed things - things like the ones you've just mentioned. Nor would I deny that idea like purgatory and repentance are part of catholic doctrine.
TBH, you're making the "recent" past sound a whole lot more 'recent' than it actually was. But that's not important - how long is a piece of string anyway.
Let's not forget that the idea behind workhouses is, in essence, a charitable ones. It is not the fault of doctrine if people running them were horribly cruel to anyone, either.
How strangely reluctant and deceptive you make it sound. "To present itself". It simply is more open-minded/liberal. Reactionary? As ever, debatable.Catholic church has been forced to present itself as more open minded and liberal in reaction to plummetting numbers in their seminaries and a reduction in political power in a more secular Ireland.
Oh, and I've lived in Kildare all my life BTW
I think I'm reasonably aware of the 'recent' past.0 -
It doesn't matter if they were being cruel to be kind (and i think it's fair to say that if they were, that they took it way way too far). It does matter that Catholic doctrine taught that the punishment of working in those laundries was necessary to 'clense the soul' of all the dirt from their 'sins of the flesh'.scouser.tommy wrote:Cruel to be kind?
I'm not denying that the church, in the past has done horribly heavy-handed things - things like the ones you've just mentioned. Nor would I deny that idea like purgatory and repentance are part of catholic doctrine.
TBH, you're making the "recent" past sound a whole lot more 'recent' than it actually was. But that's not important - how long is a piece of string anyway.
Let's not forget that the idea behind workhouses is, in essence, a charitable ones. It is not the fault of doctrine if people running them were horribly cruel to anyone, either.
These institutions were a big part of the Catholic church in Ireland. This demonstrates that the Catholic church taught that Punishment is a big part of forgiveness, and your assertions that my 'agenda' leads me to misrepresent the church are completely false. The 'recent past' is recent. it's peak was well within the lifetime of a large proportion of the Irish population, and given that these institutions operated until 1999, that's only 7 years ago. You can mimimise it all you like by calling it 'the past' but that's called 'denial'
The Catholic Church has a different face in every place it operates. It's more liberal in Ireland, but it's the same as it always was in more conservative parts of the world, like in South America and North AfricaHow strangely reluctant and deceptive you make it sound. "To present itself". It simply is more open-minded/liberal. Reactionary? As ever, debatable.0
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