TFT as TV - 7900GTX or X1900XTX?

Mouserat

Hi folks,
i'm buying myself a new PC setup, a precision 380 dual core P4 3.2 GHz with 3GB ram, and i'm trying to decide whether to put an nVidia 7900GTX or an ATI X1900XTX into it. It's mostly going to be used for playing the next generation of games.

I know about the better power and noise on the nVidia and the better oblivion framerates on the ATI, and I can't really make up my mind one way or the other.. yesterday I was definitely going to go with the GTX, today, the XTX.

I think though you may be able to make up my mind for me.. I'm also getting a new TFT monitor and would like to be able to connect my NTL digital into it as my TV is on its last legs.

I think there's a TV-in on the ATI, but as far as I can see, not on the nVidia. What extra cards/connecters etc will I need to use my TFT as my TV with these two cards? I already have Scart to s-video and composite video adaptors lying around somewhere.

Now lets settle this ATI vs nVidia thing once and for all

8T8

If your going top of the line and want all the bells and whistles turned on plus anti-aliasing and aniso-tropic filtering in future games then the X1900XTX is the clear choice to me.

Neither card has a TV-in they have a mix depending on the card of S-video or component out. What you are looking for would be a VIVO model Video In Video Out. But there are better ways to ago about this.

To treat your monitor as a TV I suggest you purchase WinXP MCE 2005 get a TV Tuner and make use of the MCE remote so it will be just like watching a normal TV you even get a TV guide. MCE works just like XP so you can treat it as your normal PC and then when you want to kick back and watch some TV just press the green button (in start menu or on remote) and the MCE UI will load up.

Alternatively purchase a TV with a VGA or DVI input for example all the Samsung HDTV's feature such a connection (I have one myself with a HTPC hooked up to it) and gaming is fine on such a display.

Mouserat

Thanks, yeah, I've been using a Gainward Ti4200 for years but when I bought it, I thought it had VIVO too and I never got that to work. Despite that, for some daft reason I cant put my finger on I still prefer the idea of nVidia cards - maybe its the lower noise and power, or just that I've been using nVidia for so long, I dunno - so it's with a bit of reluctance that I got to admit it looks like for this generation that ATI will have the edge on the higher end.

I cant bring myself to buy XP MCE though Not having done this before I cant be sure, but I thought the TV set top box output on scart, so is it possible to put that scart output directly into one type of these cards, and then continue to use the digital remote that came from NTL and show the output using some sofware viewer?

I'm not bothered about having neat interfaces, TV guides and so on - i'm just wondering if it's possible to get the TV onto the monitor using one of these cards without putting extra hardware into the machine?

The PC i'm getting has 2 pci-e slots, so hopefully it'll be SLI compatible and I can upgrade with a second card when the price drops in a year or so, but buying on budget from europc I can't be sure what sort of motherboard or powersupply is in it until it arrives. Hopefully I wont need a new powersupply unless I upgrade to SLI in a year or more, but every extra card I put in makes that less likely!

Getting a TV with a suitable input for a PC is a very good idea, but something i'm holding off on for another two or three years until prices come down a little and I can afford to get a really good display that I'll be happy to stick with for 5 or 10 years.

8T8

I can understand the allure of something your familiar with when it comes to NVIDIA cards I've been using them since the TNT era (I have a 7800GTX in my main system right now) but as someone who would describe himself as an image quality nazi the X1K series has the edge on NVIDIA's current parts when it comes to the high end because of their ability to do AA & HDR lighting at the same time plus High Quality AF.

If NVIDIA parts had at least the capability to do AA+HDR lighting at the same time I would go with them instead but they dont and wont have the ability till their next generation Direct-X 10 cards come out at the end of this year or the start of the next when Vista launches.

I have Chorus who use a Sagem set top box which has dual scart outputs and one is plugged into my ATI 550 pro Tuner via a composite connection. I used a simple scart->composite cable I bought in an AV store and that was it. I did try S-Video but the picture was in black and white, you need a box o tricks to properly convert the scart RGB to S-Video signal I think.

I can use the MCE remote to change channels access the menus and everything I normally do with Chorus, you get an IR interceptor with the remote which you place under the set top box's IR sensor. Once MCE has figured out which set top box it (online updates can also be gotten for more supported units) is you can then do anything with the remote though their is a small delay with mine by about 2-3 seconds when using the remote to access the TV.

Unless you go with a VIVO model then no I'm afraid not you need a TV Tuner or video capture device of some sort.

SLI is a better dual GPU solution than ATI's that is good for extreme high end gaming but using it as an upgrade path down the road is a tricky path as by the time you might get around to upgrading you might gain more performance by simply buying a card from latest generation that is available.

SLI & Crossfire with high end GPU's are only worth it if you have a high resolution capable display 1600x1200 or greater and intend to turn on all the eye candy with AA+AF as well. It might help with future games that are very graphically demanding but it takes a long time for those sort of games to come about.

Mouserat

Good stuff.. you're right, because of the better AA, HDR & AF support, I'm leaning towards a X1900XTX VIVO so, hopefully I'll be able to get the monitor working with one without using an extra card. Probably one of the 3 from komplett; they have a Club3d, Sapphire and a PowerColor. Anything to mark out a leader from that lot?

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?sku=317430
http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?sku=317239
http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?sku=317151

Yeah, I'm buying a 1600x1050 monitor, unfortunately, the motherboard probably wont support crossfire or SLI anyway, so I'm probably as well off going with a VIVO than a Crossfire edition. Theres none with both right, just in case? I know the setup I plan on getting now will work fine for this years games, but it would be nice to futureproof with the ability to add a second card in case the new cryengine2 or later ones cause problems sometime down the road. By then, a second card from this generation would be a very cheap way of upgrading, too.

If the worst comes to the worst, I guess I can always drop the resolution down from 1600*1050! My current PC hasnt been able to play any games from Doom3 up, i'm looking forward to this

Azza

Did I read somewhere that Nvidia's newer GPU's can do both HDR and AA both not when pixel shader 3.0 is enabled (i.e. it can if pixel shader 2.0 is on instead)

8T8

Mouserat;
They are all the same in fact they all come from the same factory so there isnt much to differentiate them the cheapest will do. For Crossfire to work you can use a normal X1900XT or XTX even with Vivo and you pair it with a Crossfire master card to enable the dual GPU system. It doesnt affect the Vivo so you can acquire a master card later on if you want to.

I think you'll find it a pretty big step up after its running there is nothing nicer then setting everything to the max in game.

Azza:
There are currently two common methods of HDR on the PC, Integer based [INT] and Floating Point based [FP] for INT HDR to work you require a DX9 SM 2.0 graphics card, for FP HDR to work* it requires a DX9 SM 3.0 graphics card.

The advantage for INT based HDR is that it will run on any SM 2.0 card and also allow AA to be used at the same time. The downside is that's it's not "true HDR" so it does not have access to the same spectrum of lights/colours etc. that the FP based HDR does.

Valve most note-ably use INT HDR in the Half Life 2: Lost Coast, this is where you heard that info from most likely.

The GeForce 6 & 7 series support FP HDR in hardware but lack is what is called floating point blending this is needed to perform multi-sampling AA if using FP HDR in a game which is why the current NVIDIA cards cannot do AA+HDR in games like Oblivion, FarCry and most likely future titles like Crysis.

It's impossible to say which way the industry will go but it seems FP based HDR is going to be more and more common in AAA titles only Valves Source based games and Serious Sam 2 have gone with the INT approach.

The following games & engines use FP HDR
Splinter Cell:CT
FarCry
Age of Empires III
ES: Oblivion
Unreal Engine 3 (lots of future games)
CryEngine 2 (Crysis)
Gamebryo (licensed engine that Oblivion uses)

I might be missing one or two on that list.

*Actually it doesn't in fact FP HDR would work on any card that has the hardware support but it just so happens that the only cards that do are SM 3.0 ones.

Mouserat

Well, I've ordered the Sapphire X1900XTX VIVO and the PC, they should be arriving next week sometime. Thanks for the advice!