POKER A game of skill or a game of chance?

Scotty #

The other day I was reading an article about new legislation in America which bans the use of credit cards for online gaming and there was something about poker being a game of "chance" or luck if you prefer. Now us poker people know that's rubbish!! "sure its one of the most skillful games there is"....but is it??

Afterwards I started thinking about the whole argument and now I'm beginning to wonder if there is more luck in poker than I thought. As Kenny said "you have to know when to hold them, know when fold them" but is that it? Is that as skillful as poker gets. If it is then its not truly a skill is it? I mean all you have to know are the odds. If you know your stuff and are getting the right odds to call and you catch your card to win the hand , did you win through skill or were you lucky to catch? How often have you seen a top player bust from a tourney and say "ahh I never really got the cards" or rather how many times have you seen players you know to be terrible make the money?

The very first thing that happens at the start of every hand is the dealer shuffles the cards in to a random order and proceeds to deal them out, so there is absolutely no skill involved. Its what you do with them that makes a player skillful. I know there are many different areas of skill in poker. Reading your opponent, finding betting patterns, hiding tells, extracting the most from an opponent and so on but at the end of the day is one players skill just another players bad luck?

I know one player can be way more skillful than another and the most skillful will win in the long run because like it or not everyone has the exact same amount of luck, I'm just wondering does luck or "chance" play a bigger part in poker than we give it credit even to the extent where it is actually a game of chance and the skill factor plays just a very small part....like them competitions wher 1000's enter and you have to be answer "a simple question of skill" to claim the prize.

TacT

meh, it's both. Skill to know what to do with them through every stage of a hand from any position from start to finish and luck in terms of the deck hitting you in the face. As regards the Americans and their credit cards, their new legislation just got owned by Neteller

jhegarty

its skill , becase a good player will win more often than a bad player....

Running Bing

Is a casino or a bookies just lucky when it makes its money? I would say no it makes money because the odds are in its favour and that for me is the skill of poker, fixing the odds so there in your favour by using check,raise,call and fold. Simple as that.

On any one game of roullette or slots the casino may lose but in the long run it will always win just as a good poker player will.

Diamondmaker

Its a game of chance but a players chances of winning are increased by skill.
But like any game you can have a lucky day or a bad day, better players have more good days than bad players. This can refer to any game what so ever.

Benglian

Do not listen to what anybody else says....
Poker is a game of chance and any two cards can win!
And as it happens there's a seat free at my table....sit yourself down!

Ste05

Poker is a game of chance. The skill comes into play by maximising your profit when you are ahead and minimising losses when you are behind.

wayfarer

All games/sports have some element of chance, whether it's full-on random chance like in poker or pseudo-random, butterfly-efffect-type chance like in sports etc.. The best teams, athletes, competitors don't always win in any game, no matter how skillful it is.

I think Poker should be classed as a game of skill just because it takes just as long to require the skills to master it.

Roulette is a game of chance since once you know the rules, your as good as any player in the world

EDIT: Blackgammon has been classed as a game of skill, even though its played with a dice.

http://www.gamecolony.com/backgammon_game_skill.shtml

El Stuntman

wayfarer wrote:

All games/sports have some element of chance, whether it's full-on random chance like in poker or pseudo-random, butterfly-efffect-type chance like in sports etc.. The best teams, athletes, competitors don't always win in any game, no matter how skillful it is.

I think Poker should be classed as a game of skill just because it takes just as long to require the skills to master it.

Roulette is a game of chance since once you know the rules, your as good as any player in the world

EDIT: Blackgammon has been classed as a game of skill, even though its played with a dice.

http://www.gamecolony.com/backgammon_game_skill.shtml

surely poker is a game for skilful chancers?

Scotty #

There's no doubt that a certain part of the game is skill. A top pro relies on his skills when he is playing other top pros, when he is playing lesser players chance will come in to it much more. There is little doubt that Phil Ivey is one of the most skillful players in the world but how well would he do in a local pub tourney?

Every time a player uses his skills, except when he has the absolute nuts, he is still taking a chance. When a player bluffs, no matter how sure he is that his opponent will fold hes taking a chance. When a player raises without the absolute nuts hes taking a chance. When a player thinks he has a read he is taking a chance. The skill is when to take the chance.

Good players will win more than they lose and bad players will lose more than they win but, while I hate to admit it, the legislators are right. Poker is a game of chance.:(

TacT wrote:

As regards the Americans and their credit cards, their new legislation just got owned by Neteller

The Bill also covers electronic transfer for the use of gambling.

hotspur

Last night when I lost 2k it was a game of chance, tonight when I won 1k it was a game of skill, I have no idea what it will be tomorrow

For some reason I like Allen Cunningham's answer "it's 100% skill and 100% luck", doesn't make a lick of sense but seems strangely apt.

Found myself sitting in front of my poker tables tonight and *actually* had this thought:
"Sigh, I wish I were a stupider player so I could suck out on people more"

Imposter

hotspur wrote:

Found myself sitting in front of my poker tables tonight and *actually* had this thought:
"Sigh, I wish I were a stupider player so I could suck out on people more"

You should play where I play! It's getting to the stage where I think it's -EV to play properly!

BrokenArrows

all games of skill have a good element of chance in it.

Just because in football the odd ball may land at your feet with a clear shot at the goal does not make it a game of luck.

Like in poker the odd card may come up with gives you everything or takes it all from you.

Sinfonia

BrokenArrows wrote:

all games of skill have a good element of chance in it.

Just because in football the odd ball may land at your feet with a clear shot at the goal does not make it a game of luck.

Like in poker the odd card may come up with gives you everything or takes it all from you.

exactly. i play pool and snooker a fair bit, not very well though, and i'll often get a lucky pot here and there, but it's still a game of skill.

i think poker is basically a skill game because one player can be better than another player. as somebody said earlier in this thread, once you learn the rules of roulette (or a similar game), then you are as good as any other roulette player. therefore roulette cannot be considered a skill game, whereas poker absolutely can

connie147

I read lately(poker section of Inside edge magazine I think) that in one mtt,luck plays approx 70%role,over 1 year,the luck factor comes down to approx 30-35% while over a lifetimes poker luck should only play a 5% role.Does that make sence to the maths people out there?

Hectorjelly

connie147 wrote:

I read lately(poker section of Inside edge magazine I think) that in one mtt,luck plays approx 70%role,over 1 year,the luck factor comes down to approx 30-35% while over a lifetimes poker luck should only play a 5% role.Does that make sence to the maths people out there?

no

TacT

Scotty # wrote:

The Bill also covers electronic transfer for the use of gambling.

bummer

Scotty #

BrokenArrows wrote:

all games of skill have a good element of chance in it.

I agree. But what I'm saying is that poker is a game of chance with an element of skill.

A skillful player can ONLY use his skills against another skillful player. Against a lesser player skill comes into the equation alot less.

FastMachine

Against a lesser player skill comes into the equation alot less.

Skill comes into the equation even more when a good player is playing a bad player. That's what it's all about, the difference in skill level.

Scotty #

FastMachine wrote:

Skill comes into the equation even more when a good player is playing a bad player. That's what it's all about, the difference in skill level.

Take a player from a $5/$10 game and put him in a .10/.20 game and we'll see how useful his skills are there.

Scotty #

BrokenArrows wrote:

Like in poker the odd card may come up with gives you everything or takes it all from you.

Not the odd card...every card. Every card you get you get by chance because the dealer shuffled the cards. You have no control over what card comes up and while that's not what the WHOLE game is about it is the FUNDAMENTAL part of the game. Therefore poker is a game of chance.

I think people confuse "luck" with "chance", myself included. Luck is when you win/lose against the odds. Chance is when you take a risk, no matter how small the risk. When a footballer takes a shot and it's off target but takes a deflection and goes in its luck. When a player has an opportunity to pass but decides to go it alone, he is taking a chance. His skill level versus his opponents will determine whether he scores or not. In snooker, I would say its 99.9% skill and 0.01%. You often see a player take on a shot where he knows if he misses he will leave his opponent with a great opportunity, this is chance.

If you look back through the HH thread you will see many hands where skill was used, but you won't find one where chance wasn't.

FastMachine

Scotty # wrote:

Take a player from a $5/$10 game and put him in a .10/.20 game and we'll see how useful his skills are there.

If he's a winning player at 5/10 he'd destroy a .10/.20 game. You don't have to pull the same moves you'd use at 5/10, you just play very solid abc poker.

Scotty wrote:

You have no control over what card comes up and while that's not what the WHOLE game is about it is the FUNDAMENTAL part of the game. Therefore poker is a game of chance.

I don't know what your point is here. You say "Poker is a game of chance" (as opposed to skill, I take it). Are you honestly saying you think there's more luck in poker than skill?
What does not having control over what card comes next have to do with anything, that's part of the game. The ultimate skill is to maximize profit and minize loss.

Scotty #

FastMachine wrote:

If he's a winning player at 5/10 he'd destroy a .10/.20 game.

I disagree. His skills just won't be as effective in the lower stakes. Anyone agree?

FastMachine wrote:

I don't know what your point is here. You say "Poker is a game of chance" (as opposed to skill, I take it). Are you honestly saying you think there's more luck in poker than skill?

No. Here's where luck and chance are being mixed up again. I'm saying that poker is primarily a game of chance and then the skill comes into it. Don't think I don't realise how much skill is involved in poker. I do.

The question is is poker a game of skill or a game of chance? MY answer is its a game of chance because there has never been a hand played in poker without taking a chance. The "skill" is whether to take the chance or not or rather how to take the chance.

Sinfonia

Scotty # wrote:

MY answer is its a game of chance because there has never been a hand played in poker without taking a chance.

this is a little bit redundant considering EVERYTHING that anybody does in life can be regarded as taking a chance as it is possible to have both positive and negative consequences to anything one does.

Sinfonia

btw Scotty, i don't know why you keep trying to differentiate the words "chance" and "luck" - they mean the same thing, they are synonyms for one another, and the American legislators you quoted certainly meant "chance" in the same context as "luck".


Taken from http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=luck:

Main Entry: luck
Part of Speech: noun 2
Definition: chance

Scotty #

SumGuy wrote:

btw Scotty, i don't know why you keep trying to differentiate the words "chance" and "luck" - they mean the same thing

Eh, no they don't. You must take a chance before you know your luck

BrokenArrows

Scotty # wrote:

I disagree. His skills just won't be as effective in the lower stakes. Anyone agree?

I agree at lower levels skill plays less a part because there are alot of players who just call and call and get lucky.

There are also alot of players who just dont care whether they win or loose so they make stupid bets or just dont know what they are doing.

I was talking to this guy in the game chat once when i was playing .5/.10 and he dumped about $20 in about 30minutes on the table. I asked him what he was at and he said he could afford it and didnt care. I was shocked.