Integrated ticketing..................not

MrPudding

Did anyone else hear about this yesterday?

They were talking about it on Newstalk. I think it was the transport bloke from the Irish Times.

They were saying that €9million has been spent so far with no system and they have just had to authorise an addition €7million to keep the project going.

Apparently they have brought in a second bunch of consultants to check the work of the first bunch.

Waste of money or valid expenditure?

MrP

MarkoP11

Waste

At the moment the RPA are still dreaming up the system, apparently nothing else fits

This is simple bench research, you do a state of the art review of what everyone else has done.

This is simple you send 2 headballs to London, Paris, Hong Kong and Munich

Its a solved problem

First question to ask is why a Luas ticket machine can't issue a ticket to a DART station, simple. If they can't crack that might as well not bother

MrPudding

One thing I was wondering was why is Ireland / Dublin so different. For example, could Oyster not be addapted to work here?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2006/oyster/general.asp

How many operators share revenue from that? I would imagine Dublin should be an easier implementation.

I don't know, it doesn't strike me as rocket science here.

MrP

paulm17781

It should be very easy to implement. What we need is an overall transit authority rather than the mess we have now.

Oyster is an off the shelf product that could be easily implemented here if the government would get some balls and set up a Dublin Transit Authority rather than drawing pretty lines on maps and calling it an Integrated Trasnport Plan. :rolleyes:

Have a look at http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/integrated_ticketing/

neilled

MarkoP11 wrote:

Waste

At the moment the RPA are still dreaming up the system, apparently nothing else fits

This is simple bench research, you do a state of the art review of what everyone else has done.

This is simple you send 2 headballs to London, Paris, Hong Kong and Munich

Its a solved problem

First question to ask is why a Luas ticket machine can't issue a ticket to a DART station, simple. If they can't crack that might as well not bother

It should be very easy to crack. Oyster is off the shelf technology.

Zebra3

Yeah, heard about it. What a joke.

As pointed out how difficult is it to organise? You'd swear we were the first city to try it.... :rolleyes:

MarkoP11

Under the cover the problem is a political one combined with a revenue problem as it will be cheaper for us under integrated ticketing, we might even travel more but the companies with get less money, of course we will be the end losers

Put it this way if you think €9 million is a lot, the public will probably lose more having to pay twice for journeys while we wait for the system to be in place

All that must be done is to get a ITSO (http://www.itso.org.uk/) compatible system then there are multiple suppliers and a range of off the shelf proven kit. All the new Dublin Bus kit is ITSO compatible.

Matters are not helped by Dublin Bus but still given they carry by far the most you think they would be the people who should get what they want. Dublin Bus stand to lose the most as the stages system would more than likely go

MarkoP11

Point is to hold up here and think. The whole thing is what you mean by integrated?

So my favourite example

I'm in Cobh in Cork and want to get the Larne in Northern Ireland and back

Cobh to Larne, two countries, 5 changes on both legs and 4 companies involved (IE, NIR, RPA, DB), but if you ask for a Cobh to Larne return it works, it can be done thats integrated ticketing as it should be. It sounds crazy but it can be done and its not complex, you have the option of Luas or Bus across Dublin.

neilled

MarkoP11 wrote:

Under the cover the problem is a political one combined with a revenue problem as it will be cheaper for us under integrated ticketing, we might even travel more but the companies with get less money, of course we will be the end losers

Put it this way if you think €9 million is a lot, the public will probably lose more having to pay twice for journeys while we wait for the system to be in place

All that must be done is to get a ITSO (http://www.itso.org.uk/) compatible system then there are multiple suppliers and a range of off the shelf proven kit. All the new Dublin Bus kit is ITSO compatible.

Matters are not helped by Dublin Bus but still given they carry by far the most you think they would be the people who should get what they want. Dublin Bus stand to lose the most as the stages system would more than likely go

Hmmm loss of revenue. Surely the whole part behind smart carding or whatever the hell we end up calling it here is that it makes the use of public transport easier, more attractive and a bit cheaper, encouraging people out of their cars and onto the bus, tram or train? If they manage that, in conjunction with review their services and routes, surely the increased number of passengers would offset the revenue lost.

Or am i just being naieve and idealistic?

MarkoP11

The sentence I have for this

Operators appear fearful that any real integration between services and fares will lead to a division of revenue and passengers

Dublin Bus has honed its revenue gathering approach to maximise the amount it can grab, can't blame them as the government won't put up a proper level of support

The fact of course is the public transport system is creaking at the seems there isn't anymore space, sure we will make more journeys but the smartcard system will (well it should) automatically grant you a day ticket when you exceed a certain level of usage thus you automatically pay the least possible fare at all times

Vazelothir

neilled wrote:

It should be very easy to crack. Oyster is off the shelf technology.

Oyster is not "off the shelf" technology!!!!!
its a Stg £1.7 Billion contract to Cubic/EDS over 17 years

and its not even ITSO compliant!!!

paulm17781

Vazelothir wrote:

Oyster is not "off the shelf" technology!!!!!
its a Stg £1.7 Billion contract to Cubic/EDS over 17 years

and its not even ITSO compliant!!!

However it now exists so we could, if you will, "take it off the shelf".

MarkoP11

ITSO compatability is currently under test

neilled

Vazelothir wrote:

Oyster is not "off the shelf" technology!!!!!
its a Stg £1.7 Billion contract to Cubic/EDS over 17 years

and its not even ITSO compliant!!!

No idea what the hell ITSO means buts a system that operates sucessfully carrying hundreds of thousands of passangers every day. I've seen the little widget in operation, works well so it does. Now if it can be bought of licensed then it fits my definition of off the shelf!

Vazelothir

oh yes, just ignore all govt. purchasing guidelines and buy oysters system
I'm sure that would end up with us getting a great deal, just ask NTR

MrPudding

Vazelothir wrote:

oh yes, just ignore all govt. purchasing guidelines and buy oysters system
I'm sure that would end up with us getting a great deal, just ask NTR

Could it be worse? They have spend €16 million so far and have nothing to show for it.

MrP

Victor

But Luas and Mortons are integrated!!!!

neilled

Vazelothir wrote:

oh yes, just ignore all govt. purchasing guidelines and buy oysters system
I'm sure that would end up with us getting a great deal, just ask NTR

Which is used by how many londoners without fault every single day? Or are we going to fork out more for our own consultants to do a report on a report.

I'm just putting my rather simple view across as a public transport user. - I'd rather they swolled their pride and bought something with a proven record rather than reinvent the wheel irish style.

It can't be any worse than having spent millions of euro and having nothing to show for it!

monument

Ok, an integrated smart card system is one thing, but can integrated ticketing* be done cheap and quickly with just a software upgrade to the RPA/DB/IR ticket systems? Or am I’m missing something?

* more then the small amount that's currently working - and I’m speaking only on the technology side of thing

John R

neilled wrote:

Which is used by how many londoners without fault every single day? Or are we going to fork out more for our own consultants to do a report on a report.

I'm just putting my rather simple view across as a public transport user. - I'd rather they swolled their pride and bought something with a proven record rather than reinvent the wheel irish style.

It can't be any worse than having spent millions of euro and having nothing to show for it!

In technical terms the system we will get (sometime?) is better than the oyster scheme as the cards need only proximity to the reader and not physical contact.

The main issue that needs confronting here is the big one; politics.

In London it was decided that the idea of tagging on and off for bus journeys was too problematic, it would have significantly slowed down stop times and been a turn-off for the public. They solved this problem by simplifying the bus fare structure to a flat fare only. Over time they significantly increased the cash fare while reducing the oyster fare to encourage the hold-outs.

None of this was technically difficult but it required a situation where bus operations were not funded directly from the farebox. The operators in London collect the fares and hand them over to the transport authority, they are paid an agreed amount to operate the services.

Here Dublin Bus are in a position where they rely on the fares for the majority of their funding so anything that cuts that fare is not viable for them as they cannot afford to do without it.

It is largely academic anyway as the cash fare structure is under direct control of central government and is now annually used as a political barganing tool.


What the specific delay with the RPA is, god knows. They have had the project and ample funding for two years now with no apparent progress.

All the hardware is in place and operational, the RPA have their rather limited luas-only scheme running (funny that; they can set up their own easily enough but when it comes to integration they are AWOL) and Dublin Bus are considering changing all their current card pre-pay tickets to smartcard as well.

antoinolachtnai

I think you are all underestimating the nature and complexity of this project. This is the most complex transport smartcard implementation in the world, partly because of the farebox issue that John R mentions and partly because the politics means we have no idea how many transport companies there will actually be in Dublin in 5 years. There could be one, or there could be as many as 20 or 30, depending on how the sector is privatized or deregulated. The number of companies makes a massive difference to how you implement something like this in practice.

There is no way that the integration project could have been completed in the time allocated. It's just not possible. It's a five-year project. (If you go back through the boards.ie archives you will see that I have said this before.)

As I understand it, the project essentially hasn't begun yet, so I think 2011 is the earliest realistic date for an integrated ticketing system under the current framework. (I agree that RPA, DTA, CIE and the government should consider finding a new framework, and fast.)

On a technical note, Oyster in the UK is a proximity, contactless system, and does not require physical contact.

I have written something about the whole issue at http://www.eire.com/2006/04/09/it-failure-the-integrated-ticketing-system/

markpb

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I think you are all underestimating the nature and complexity of this project. This is the most complex transport smartcard implementation in the world ... the number of companies makes a massive difference to how you implement something like this in practice.

Technically this project is simple.

Operationally this project is simple.

The number of operators makes absolutely no difference once they agree on the revenue splits. I work for a smartcard-software company and we've worked on more complicated projects than this with more merchants now than there will ever be in Dublin.

The only thing holding this project back, is politics. There's no dublin transport authority to look after its implementation which leaves us with a minister for transport who doesn't really care about p/t. There's no hurry because its a not a vote-winning exercise. Building new motorways and light rail systems, promising metro lines and opening bypasses are all vastly more important to any polititian.

Revenue calculation for irish rail (on single/return trip tickets) are easy. Revenye calculation for luas with the current system is easy. There are numerous options for Dublin Bus and other private bus operators but the lack of government funding means there's no incentive for any of them to play ball.

antoinolachtnai

Well, that's the problem, the revenue splits. There's no simple answer to it. Remember, the original rationale for the system was to provide discounted multi-segment trips.

In London (and, I think, Hong Kong) this issue just doesn't arise, because there is no revenue split. This is exponentially harder to negotiate when you have mutiple transport companies, each with different price structures.

There are definitely extra technical issues when you add 10 or 20 new operators. Small operations have different requirements. Different companies will be using differerent equipment. Cost becomes a big issue when you have small operators.

Operationally, it is going to take some time and work to get 5,000 terminals and a million smart cards all working together perfectly. The potential for revenue loss if the system doesn't work is enormous.

If you have a season ticket, the revenue allocation is very difficult to do. It is not straightforward to calculate revenue, because season ticket users won't touch out. You have to do surveys and the surveys have to be very thorough and carried out very regularly when you have small private companies in it.

This is not a straightforward cashcard system (if there is such a thing). It's an integrated ticketing system.

paulm17781

I think you're missing the point. Smartcard != Integrated ticketing.

What Dublin needs is proper integrated ticketing, then a smartcard could be looked at.

jlang

antoinolachtnai wrote:

In London (and, I think, Hong Kong) this issue just doesn't arise, because there is no revenue split. This is exponentially harder to negotiate when you have mutiple transport companies, each with different price structures.

But in London at least there is a revenue split. The services are run by several companies but they all present a unified price structure to the public. All the money goes to TFL or whoever and each operator gets paid according to their contract, but the details of that contract are irrelevant to the end user.

Bee

For God's sake guys can't you see the problem is FF's Cullen screwing up things again for the taxpayers!

Bee

antoinolachtnai

It's not a split of revenue in London. The operator is just paid per mile (+ bonus if applicable). It's called a gross contract if I remember correctly. They tried it the other way, where the revenue for the operator depended on the amount of money/tickets collected on the bus, and it just didn't work.

(To be thorough, there is a revenue split with the rail companies on certain season tickets, but it is fairly straightforward.)

Winters

Buses & Integrated Ticketing
Presented by Paul Morton
This Event is CPD Approved.
Start Date & Time : 26/04/2006
End Date & Time : 26/04/2006
Venue: Engineers Ireland, 22 Clyde Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4

Source: http://www.iei.ie/diary/SectorEventDetails.pasp?INT_SECTOR_ID=116&MenuID=7&SectorName=