Legal stance on Stab-proof vest's

Johnny Doorman

What is the current legal position of Kevlar stab proof vests in Ireland??

maidhc

The same as Armani and Hilfiger I presume!

EducatedGuess

I do not really understand the context of your question. What are you trying to get at, I think the question is a bit too broad.

Johnny Doorman

Sorry i put it across wrongly,
If i was to own & wear a kevlar stab-proof vest for security work or purchase one here in Ireland would i be commiting an offence, they are pefectly legal to buy & own in the UK and alot of doormen, bar-men & security guards wear them, Can they be legally sold & posessed in Ireland, There was an incident in news the other week were a man was shot in a car chase while wearing a bullet proof vest but no mention of if it is legal to wear one?

el tel

It imagine they are just items of protective apparel. I can't see why they'd be illegal. If they were, they might as well ban steel-toecap shoes, oven gloves or condoms for that matter!

besty

I can't see how protective, non-offensive apparel could be deemed illegal. I'm not aware of any legislation on this but I would be very suprised if there was.

Scumbag69

Perfectly legal but neither comfortable nor discreet when worn underneath a shirt.

Remember that a stab vest is thicker and less flexible that a bullet proof.

gilroyb

no idea about stab vests in Ireland, but I do know that bullet proof vests are illegal in the U.S. so it is possible for protective clothing to be illegal.

Thirdfox

Why are they illegal in the US?

gilroyb

The suggestion is why would you want one if you're not going to be involved in something illegal. They can't ban guns etc. Also, if people had such vests it lessens the effect the police can have on them.

By the way, I don't really agree with with any of these arguements, but they're the ones put forward.

Thirdfox

Ah... just like the old argument - why have the right to silence if you've done nothing wrong?

Trojan911

gilroyb wrote:

The suggestion is why would you want one if you're not going to be involved in something illegal. They can't ban guns etc. Also, if people had such vests it lessens the effect the police can have on them.

Interesting theory, I have two vests. Both bullet and stab proof. One is cumbersome and bulky the other is lined with fourteen layers of Kevlar and is discreet and comfortable, I use the latter for shooting, perfectly legal, when I am out with a crowd on a hunt. To me, it could minimise injury or death if an accidental or negligent discharge occurs. I don't know if they are illegal here.


TJ911...

maidhc

gilroyb wrote:

The suggestion is why would you want one if you're not going to be involved in something illegal.

Do innocent people not get shot?

In Ireland like most western countries it is the situation that everything is presumed legal unless explicitly illegal.

dermot_sheehan

Trojan911 wrote:

Interesting theory, I have two vests. Both bullet and stab proof. One is cumbersome and bulky the other is lined with fourteen layers of Kevlar and is discreet and comfortable, I use the latter for shooting, perfectly legal, when I am out with a crowd on a hunt. To me, it could minimise injury or death if an accidental or negligent discharge occurs. I don't know if they are illegal here.


TJ911...

As far as I know they aren't controlled under the Firearms or Offensive Weaponse legislation so perfectly legal.

In the U.S. it's illegal under federal law for a convicted felon to be in possession of body armour, it varies under state law for whether a normal person can.

Boston

Body armer isn't illegal in the US. It is however illegal if you have a criminal record, of any kind. I had heard mention that it was illegal here though... no one ever backed that up with reasons.

Johnny Doorman

Thanks one & all, has given me re-assurance.

EducatedGuess

I think the presumption that can be used here is like those scanner things and bulletproof vests. Although not illegal the Gardai can presume that if you are wearing a vest outside a bank while sitting in a parked car, that you are using it to assist you in a crime. Likewise for scanners, although not illegal they are if using them in to assist you in a crime i.e. sitting outside a bank etc.

Scumbag69

Trojan911 wrote:

Interesting theory, I have two vests. Both bullet and stab proof. One is cumbersome and bulky the other is lined with fourteen layers of Kevlar and is discreet and comfortable, I use the latter for shooting, perfectly legal, when I am out with a crowd on a hunt. To me, it could minimise injury or death if an accidental or negligent discharge occurs. I don't know if they are illegal here.


TJ911...

Why the stab vest?

TapouT

Scumbag69 wrote:

Remember that a stab vest is thicker and less flexible that a bullet proof.

Don't be silly.

Johnny if your working in an environment where you'd feel safer with a vest I wouldn't be asking an internet forum for advice on one, I'd just wear it.

You should be able to pick up a 1.5lb (in weight) stab proof vest from ebay for under €100, it will also provide protection from low volocity bullets too.

If you want a bullet proof vest your going to have to go for the full on protect with a kevlar vest, plus caramic tiles like the defence forces use.

Thirdfox

Or buy a tank!

Esel

'Don't mess with me - I'm wearing a stab-proof vest!'

Eru

TapouT wrote:

Don't be silly.

Johnny if your working in an environment where you'd feel safer with a vest I wouldn't be asking an internet forum for advice on one, I'd just wear it.

You should be able to pick up a 1.5lb (in weight) stab proof vest from ebay for under €100, it will also provide protection from low volocity bullets too.

If you want a bullet proof vest your going to have to go for the full on protect with a kevlar vest, plus caramic tiles like the defence forces use.

Actually Tapout the comment by Scumbag is correct. Buillet proof vests are not as thick as stab proof vests.

Stab proofs, level 3 have plates inserted in them. Thats why police forces and military forces DO NOT use bullet proof vests anymore, they use stab proof as that offers protection from high impact bullets as well.

Check out the NIJ level 1 vests, they offer 'limited' protection from knives but are bullet proof. Level 2 is stab resistent but not proof and goes as far as a 357 Magnum and you must get too level 3 too have a good stab protection.

Why you ask? A bullet is a blunt object, when it hits kevlar weaving it spreads the impact on the surface and cannot break the lining while flattening out . A knife however inserts at a point through the kevlar weaving and then rips the weaving as it slides in. A syringe does neither, it simple inserts itself between the various strands of weaving. That is why bullet proof kevlar vests are considered 'soft body' armour.
The plate armour you refer too in the military is actually stab proof vests with metal plates instead of plastic and the purpose of the plates is too stop sharp objects and armour piercing bullets.


proof?
See:
1. Types of armour and what protection:
2. How Stab-Proof vests resist penetration
3. Kevlar lined bulletproof vests

TapouT

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Actually Tapout the comment by Scumbag is correct. Buillet proof vests are not as thick as stab proof vests.

Stab proofs, level 3 have plates inserted in them. Thats why police forces and military forces DO NOT use bullet proof vests anymore, they use stab proof as that offers protection from high impact bullets as well.

Check out the NIJ level 1 vests, they offer 'limited' protection from knives but are bullet proof. Level 2 is stab resistent but not proof and goes as far as a 357 Magnum and you must get too level 3 too have a good stab protection.

Why you ask? A bullet is a blunt object, when it hits kevlar weaving it spreads the impact on the surface and cannot break the lining while flattening out . A knife however inserts at a point through the kevlar weaving and then rips the weaving as it slides in. A syringe does neither, it simple inserts itself between the various strands of weaving. That is why bullet proof kevlar vests are considered 'soft body' armour.
The plate armour you refer too in the military is actually stab proof vests with metal plates instead of plastic and the purpose of the plates is too stop sharp objects and armour piercing bullets.


proof?
See:
1. Types of armour and what protection:
2. How Stab-Proof vests resist penetration
3. Kevlar lined bulletproof vests

I'm going on my experience in wearing vests for the last 20+ years military service both at home and oversea's. However I take your information as proof that some people believe that.

Eru

TapouT wrote:

I'm going on my experience in wearing vests for the last 20+ years military service both at home and oversea's. However I take your information as proof that some people believe that.

Well I have worn covert vests also and like I stated, military vests are stab proof not just bullet, they have metal inserts. Normal bullet proof or 'soft' vests do not have inserts but relies in kevlar weaving. Howeve dont take my word for it, this is what http://www.bulletproofme.com had to say about kevlar: "“When a handgun bullet strikes body armor, it is caught in a “web” of very strong fibers. These fibers absorb and disperse the impact energy that is transmitted to the vest from the bullet, causing the bullet to deform or “mushroom”. Additional energy is absorbed by each successive layer of material in the vest, until such time as the bullet has been stopped." Wow, thats what I said.

I take your comments as proof that you ignore factual statements with links to support and instead make unsubstantiated service claims. Did you look at the links provided?

Did you wear NUI level 1, 2 or 3? what joule level were they tested against?

In any case, perhaps you would pay a visit too Stab proof addons to bullet proof vest

If you look at the product 'stab-resistent inserts' you will see it states "Easy Retro-fit to upgrade ballistic vests for Stab-Resistance, plus superb blunt trauma performance."

So again I repeat, bullet proof is not stab proof however stab proof is bullet proof.

Links to prove my point:
1. http://www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Protection_Levels.shtml
2. http://www.bulletproofme.com/Stab-Resistance-Levels.shtml
3. http://www.bulletproofme.com/Body_Armor_Complete_Products_LIST.shtml
4. http://www.firstdefense.com/html/bulletproof_vests.htm
5. http://firstdefense.com/html/vest_styles_prices.htm
6. http://www.firstdefense.com/html/Stab-Proof_Vest_Body_Armor_Ballistic_Vest_Bulletproof_Vest_Police_Law_Enforcement_PoliceSupplies.htm

Boston

As an engineer what Karlitosway1978 is saying makes allot of sense to me, care to respond TapOut?

Karlitosway1978 would I be right in think the metal plates blunt the piercing object suffiecently for the kevlar to absorb the impact? Is that the idea like?

Eru

LiouVille wrote:

As an engineer what Karlitosway1978 is saying makes allot of sense to me, care to respond TapOut?

Karlitosway1978 would I be right in think the metal plates blunt the piercing object suffiecently for the kevlar to absorb the impact? Is that the idea like?

Yippee for me!!!!

On point 2. In regards to bullets, I suppose that makes sense against bullets designed not too mushroom on impact. I was simple told that they stopped high impact bullets by being a solid object in the way as certain ammo would pierce the kevlar in the same way that a knife does. Your kinda leaving me behind now.

I can add however that the all vests also help when being punched and kicked by distributing the impact around your whole body (most noticable in reducing the 'winding' you get when hit in the stomach)

Our man in Havana

Is it legal for Joe Q public to buy and wear one of these vests in public?

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

Is it legal for Joe Q public to buy and wear one of these vests in public?

Think it was said before, legal to own but only legal under certain circumstances.

IE, robbing a bank, its 'suspicious' shall we say but theres limits.

Some doormen may wear one for safety because its a dangerous job or because they are gettign threatened for being honest and not corrupt. Some however may be wearing because they are shady as hell.

Thats not a slight on honest doormen, I know theres plenty of them but the security industry has a lot of shady characters as well.

Personally I have only had 2 cases of a security guard assaulted, both minor and neither working doors. I dont think they need them really, especially not covert. Hot, uncomfortable and restrictive. I think it would probable cause more than it solves.

TapouT

LiouVille wrote:

As an engineer what Karlitosway1978 is saying makes allot of sense to me, care to respond TapOut?

Karlitosway1978 would I be right in think the metal plates blunt the piercing object suffiecently for the kevlar to absorb the impact? Is that the idea like?

Sorry I lost contact with this thread. I'm new to this site and its a pretty big site to remember where all my posts are going.

Ok, I can only talk about bullet proof vest in terms of my own experience with them. I was thinking the other day after reading this here. My experience with vests is confined to 'flak jackets' (I'm in the army for the last twenty years now). Our jackets have ceramic plates for your chest and back, but these are probably designed with not only small arms fire in mind but also with protection from high velocity rounds and shrapnel from explosives.

Getting back to the thread and its question regarding the legitimacy of wearing a stab proof vest. I think if your working on a door and wearing one it could come under the heading of health and safety.

A friend of mine was stabbed in work (Templebar) last year, it wasn't serious but he ordered a vest online and has worn it since. As the old saying goes, and I think it applies to him and other doorstaff in relation to stab proof vests "its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6".

Sorry I fell out of touch with the thread, like I said its quite a big board and I'm busy Moderating another board I run.

-TapouT

TapouT

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Some doormen may wear one for safety because its a dangerous job or because they are gettign threatened for being honest and not corrupt. Some however may be wearing because they are shady as hell.

Thats not a slight on honest doormen, I know theres plenty of them but the security industry has a lot of shady characters as well.

Personally I have only had 2 cases of a security guard assaulted, both minor and neither working doors. I dont think they need them really, especially not covert. Hot, uncomfortable and restrictive. I think it would probable cause more than it solves.

Shady doormen. Honestly I haven't come accross any shady doorstaff who've needed a vest yet, and I've been in that industry for over 15 years now.

Concern is growing amoung door staff in relation to knife attacks, and in particular with attacks from East Europeans. I'm not getting into a debate on immigration here, but they're a concern to doorstaff and more and more doormen are talking about getting vests because of the rise in knife attacks and threats by Eastern EU nationals.

Aid the Blade

as far as i know you can be charged with posession of a "fire-arm/offensive weapon" if caught with one.cant remember exactly but am nearly sure of reading in the paper of a boyo being done for having one.im not 100% though.

TapouT

Aid the Blade wrote:

as far as i know you can be charged with posession of a "fire-arm/offensive weapon" if caught with one.cant remember exactly but am nearly sure of reading in the paper of a boyo being done for having one.im not 100% though.

A stab proof vest can be seen as a firearm?. Explain that one please.

Aid the Blade

that would be one for the guards to do.night vision & infra red scopes,laser sights and other such devices are illegal under the firearms/offensive weapons acts.plastic ball bearing guns with less than a joule of energy are classed as a hand gun and can in theory incur the same penalties for posession as such.there are a lot of irregularaties in the law which are supposed to be cleared up with this new criminal justice bill.

MrPudding

LiouVille wrote:

As an engineer what Karlitosway1978 is saying makes allot of sense to me, care to respond TapOut?

Karlitosway1978 would I be right in think the metal plates blunt the piercing object suffiecently for the kevlar to absorb the impact? Is that the idea like?

Not having read the links provided by Karlito I would sya you are probably correct here.

Full Metal Copper Jacketed rounds would probably be able to get through the weave in a kevlar vest as they are quite pointy. However, smacking a ceramic plate at 800 metres per second may very well cause enough deformation to allow the kevlar fibers to get a hold of it in the manner exaplained by Karlito.

My understanding is that the "pouches" for holding the plates are on the outside of the vest and therefore will be hit before the kevlar. I think this backs up your idea also.

Slightly OT. Has anyone been stopped by in the North by a policeman with a clipboard? They, the clipboards not the police, are made out of kevlar. The idea being if they stop a car and he driver pulls a firearm you hold the clipboard out to protect your head. Painfull on the shoulders if hit I would imagine but better than a bullet in the head.

MrP

Eru

Aid,
Why post this:

Aid the Blade wrote:

as far as i know you can be charged with posession of a "fire-arm/offensive weapon" if caught with one.cant remember exactly but am nearly sure of reading in the paper of a boyo being done for having one.im not 100% though.

and then state:

Aid the Blade wrote:

that would be one for the guards to do.

I cannot explain your rants when they are wrong. No body armour is an offensive weapon. A weapon must be capable of actually harming someone else. The Act is pretty open and covers a lot but Jesus, a covert jacket?

Tapout,
I admire a man that can admit hes wrong and you did so graciously however I would urge you to accept that the security industry has a pretty substantial amount of criminals involved in it because I will be quite annoyed if I have to post links for the 3rd time (think commercial security employing ex burglers, think PC security hiring hackers and then look towards the INLA, IRA and many others for doorwork).

Also, I walk Templebar, dont remember any stabbing in the area concerning security in the past year or so. Last notable city centre stabbings were both on the northside, one against a Latvian and the other against a Garda.

As for the original post, they are legal and if you are not commiting a crime while wearing one then no problems. A doorman wearing one should be OK and hey, if you want to buy one and wear it then thats your decision. personally, and Im speaking personally, I have found covert stab vests very very uncomfortable and arkward to operate in when dealing with a violent suspect however there may be newer more 'covert' ones than what I tried.

Victor

Be aware that any of these vests will not make you invulnerable. I think it was in Australia that 8-10 "protected" police officers rushed a knife armed suspect, only to have 4 of them stabbed.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Why you ask? A bullet is a blunt object, when it hits kevlar weaving it spreads the impact on the surface and cannot break the lining while flattening out . A knife however inserts at a point through the kevlar weaving and then rips the weaving as it slides in. A syringe does neither, it simple inserts itself between the various strands of weaving. That is why bullet proof kevlar vests are considered 'soft body' armour.
The plate armour you refer too in the military is actually stab proof vests with metal plates instead of plastic and the purpose of the plates is too stop sharp objects and armour piercing bullets.

Its a little more than that, once a bullet hits anything it starts loosing energy, however a knife can have the full weight of the assailant behind it.

TapouT

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Aid,

Tapout,
I admire a man that can admit hes wrong and you did so graciously however I would urge you to accept that the security industry has a pretty substantial amount of criminals involved in it because I will be quite annoyed if I have to post links for the 3rd time (think commercial security employing ex burglers, think PC security hiring hackers and then look towards the INLA, IRA and many others for doorwork)..

When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No point in digging a hole for myself!. As regards bouncer's in the INLA, IRA etc. Honestly, hand on heart I've never knowingly worked with any. But thats not to say we're all as pure as the driven snow. Its also one of the reason's I welcome legilation covering private security companies, to help get rid of these renegades from the doors. Don't worry, I've worked witha few lose cannons, and I won't accept it. I'm on doors in Templebar for over ten years now (doors over 15yrs in total) and in that time I've rarely had to justify my actions to a guard and I've made it very clear to other guys working with me that I won't appricate it if they put me in court with them.

About the stabbing. It happened in 'The Mez', if you want the details you can PM me and I'll give 'em to you.

If your working in Templebar we've most likely crossed paths.

OT, but this is my last year of working door's. Over all its been brilliant. I've met some great people, and some total scumbags. Not all scumbags are junkies either they come in all shades!. I've often thought that if I could write a book on my years on the door I'd make a mint!. They've been great years and I know that the people who I've dealt with would have went away and told others that not all bouncers were knuckle heads.

mountainyman

TapouT wrote:

A friend of mine was stabbed in work (Templebar) last year, it wasn't serious...

That is pretty ****ing nails. A minor stabbing.
RESPECT
The effectiveness of the vest has nothing to do with the legal staus.

TapouT

mountainyman wrote:

That is pretty ****ing nails. A minor stabbing.
RESPECT
The effectiveness of the vest has nothing to do with the legal staus.

And translated you mean?...

Boston

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Aid,

Tapout,
I admire a man that can admit hes wrong and you did so graciously however I would urge you to accept that the security industry has a pretty substantial amount of criminals involved in it because I will be quite annoyed if I have to post links for the 3rd time (think commercial security employing ex burglers, think PC security hiring hackers and then look towards the INLA, IRA and many others for doorwork).

The reason why IRA and INLA (more INLA then IRA) men are acting as door men, is due more to a protection and the threat of having an establishment burnt to the ground, then them being experts in the field of scum.

Tapout, You would never have worked with them, unless you where in some sort of republican movement yourself. They come in, tell the owner that they are taking care of his security problem, and go from there. INLA took a major hit afew years back however, and since then haven't been up to much.

Eru

LiouVille wrote:

The reason why IRA and INLA (more INLA then IRA) men are acting as door men, is due more to a protection and the threat of having an establishment burnt to the ground, then them being experts in the field of scum.

Tapout, You would never have worked with them, unless you where in some sort of republican movement yourself. They come in, tell the owner that they are taking care of his security problem, and go from there. INLA took a major hit afew years back however, and since then haven't been up to much.

Would largely agree with this.

Trojan911

Scumbag69 wrote:

Why the stab vest?

They were given to me with that protection. So I use them, more the latter one for comfort & discretion.


TJ911...

Eru

Trojan911 wrote:

They were given to me with that protection. So I use them, more the latter one for comfort & discretion.


TJ911...

explain, stabs wouldnt be as comfortable as bullet proof.

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

explain, stabs wouldnt be as comfortable as bullet proof.

Mine is both, stab & bulletproof, very discreet, comfortable & tailor made to fit, whereas the first one is bulky & cumbersome & plates have to be fitted to enable the stab proofing, not comfortable at all. I'll pull it down & run the make by you some time when I get a chance, the fox hunts have slowed down so I don't use it that often these days

TJ911...

InTheTrees

US ebay has a lot. It looks like stab proof is more expensive then bulletproof.

On the other hand there's probably many more grades of protection under the umbrella "bullet proof".

evercloserunion

gilroyb wrote: »

The suggestion is why would you want one if you're not going to be involved in something illegal. They can't ban guns etc. Also, if people had such vests it lessens the effect the police can have on them.

By the way, I don't really agree with with any of these arguements, but they're the ones put forward.

Those arguments seem all the more ludicrous in light of the arguments used to justify firearm legality in the US. But that is off-topic.

maidhcII

ak security wrote: »

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FACT: Zombies are illegal in Ireland.