Borderline Decision

The_Chopper

Playing in the red cow last night (94 runners), down to the final table of 10.

There are about 800K chips in play with the blinds at 4K/8K, average stack at 80K.

There are 3 people at the table with more chips then me, 1 with about the same amount of chips and 5 under me. I have 70K in chips.

All the players at the table are quite solid and are looking for a premium hand, a big ace or a pocket pair.

Blind are going up in 8 mins when this hand occured.
The first 3 players pass, I look down at KcQc do I push, raise or fold? There are 6 players to act behind be including the blinds.

My reasoning is this:
I feel that if I push I will only be called with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ and possible AJ as the table is so tight.
In these smaller tournaments I play to win - it's not a matter of trying to wait people out so I can go up in the money.
If I had 100K in chips I would have opened for a raise off about 22K and folded if someone reraised me big preflop.

I ended up pushing and I am still not sure if it was the correct move to make or not.

breadmonkey

I thnk this is a bit of a hail mary play.

You will only be called by a hand that has you beaten given the way you described the table.

You'll either take the blinds or lose your stack.

The_Chopper

breadmonkey wrote:

I thnk this is a bit of a hail mary play.

You will only be called by a hand that has you beaten given the way you described the table.

You'll either take the blinds or lose your stack.

What do you mean it's a hail Mary play?

I'm not looking for a caller when I make this move - i am looking to take down the blinds. As I have only 9BB and the blinds are going up soon I feel I have to do something to accumulate chips and this is really a semi bluff.
What percentage of times will I run into one of the three bigger stacks with a bigger hand?

My thinking behind this hand is that maybe I could have afforded to fold it seeing I had 6 people to get through. That's why I think it is so borderline.

connie147

Where were the players with more chips than you sitting?Did you still have to go through them.If one of them calls you your definately behind and trying to get lucky.A raise to 20,000 will get you the blinds in that case if no premium hand is playing.How many chips has the BB.Raise to 20,000 and give it up to a bigger stack reraise or fold pre-flop.All-in is just too risky.you still have a healthy chip stack and you can wait for a better spot.

NickyOD

It's a tough one. If I was at the table I think I'd have looked at the hand for 10 seconds, thought about pushing, then said to myself that I've thought about it too long and folded. I think its 50/50 whether or not you should push here. The flatter the payouts the more I lean towards pushing. There is an equation that can help with this. By taking the range of hands you listed and working out how often the players behind you will be dealt one of them you can work out whether or not you gain or lose chips with a push. I would work it out but I don't have time at the moment, maybe later.

Also I think its sometimes naive to underestimate the calling range of 6 players to act behind you, no matter how much you know about them. I have sometimes pushed in this spot and been called by pocket 5s which I never would have included in the range at all.

With the blinds so big at this point, and going up again in a few hands any raise other than an all-in is out of the question.

RoundTower

There is a post not that far back that deals with a very similar situation, by me and I think lenny_leonard. We figured 45 suited was good enough to push in that spot. This one is slightly different but I'd still say KQs is good enough.

fuzzbox

Im all-in.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Im all-in.

Call.



Yeah this is definately a push anyway.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Call.

No problem - I will suck out on ur ATo ....

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

No problem - I will suck out on ur ATo ....

AsTc v KcQc

Flop KsQdJs
Turn Qs :mad:
River Ts

Player Gone!

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

AsTc v KcQc

Flop KsQdJs
Turn Qs :mad:
River Ts

Player Gone!

Think of the story ..... wouldnt it be grand.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Think of the story ..... wouldnt it be grand.

This is my lifetime goal. To knock the legend that is fuzzbox out of a tournament and to call you down with bottom pair in a cash game and stack you.:) If I can achieve this, anything is possible.

The_Chopper

connie147 wrote:

Where were the players with more chips than you sitting?Did you still have to go through them.If one of them calls you your definately behind and trying to get lucky.A raise to 20,000 will get you the blinds in that case if no premium hand is playing.How many chips has the BB.Raise to 20,000 and give it up to a bigger stack reraise or fold pre-flop.All-in is just too risky.you still have a healthy chip stack and you can wait for a better spot.

I think with the blinds close to going up this is a push or fold move. I think a raise of 20K pretty much pot commits you if your reraised all in.

20K raised + 4K SB + 8K BB and reraise to 70k = 102K, now you're getting over 2 to 1 on your money to call.

The reason I think it's borderline is cos there are 6 players to act behind you, if I was on the button or cut off this is an automatic push.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

This is my lifetime goal. To knock the legend that is fuzzbox out of a tournament and to call you down with bottom pair in a cash game and stack you.:) If I can achieve this, anything is possible.

Bottom pair is the nuts against me .... apparently ... thats too easy.

do something harder.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Bottom pair is the nuts against me .... apparently ... thats too easy.

do something harder.

How about putting you on an exact hand (79d on a 6d8dJsKs3c board) and calling you with T9?

ianmc38

cardshark202 wrote:

How about putting you on an exact hand (79d on a 6d8dJsKs3c board) and calling you with T9?

Standard call.

connie147

The_Chopper wrote:

I think with the blinds close to going up this is a push or fold move. I think a raise of 20K pretty much pot commits you if your reraised all in.

20K raised + 4K SB + 8K BB and reraise to 70k = 102K, now you're getting over 2 to 1 on your money to call.

The reason I think it's borderline is cos there are 6 players to act behind you, if I was on the button or cut off this is an automatic push.

Agreed if your on button or cut off,but with 6 to act,you could very possibly be called by A-K or A-Q and your in trouble.Id rather push in that position with 9-10 suited than with K-Q.personally,i think id just fold in that position.

The_Chopper

connie147 wrote:

Agreed if your on button or cut off,but with 6 to act,you could very possibly be called by A-K or A-Q and your in trouble.Id rather push in that position with 9-10 suited than with K-Q.personally,i think id just fold in that position.

I think if the situation arises again I'll fold, just cos there are two many people to go around. I do think that it is a very marginal call. I wouldn't mind finding out whether it's + or - EV

Iceman78

I know a lot of people wont like this play but how about limping in from your position hoping to see a flop. You still have enough chips to get away if you miss the flop.

If you get raised, you will then have option to reraise which can look stronger than if you push all in first or you can lay down if you dont fancy your chances against the opponent.

Obviously trying this tactic depends on how aggressive the table is. If the table is very aggressive, its a waste of time but if its a passive table, you might get away with it.

The_Chopper

Iceman78 wrote:

I know a lot of people wont like this play but how about limping in from your position hoping to see a flop. You still have enough chips to get away if you miss the flop.

If you get raised, you will then have option to reraise which can look stronger than if you push all in first or you can lay down if you dont fancy your chances against the opponent.

Obviously trying this tactic depends on how aggressive the table is. If the table is very aggressive, its a waste of time but if its a passive table, you might get away with it.

Limping is a play I've tried with this hand in the past on final tables. The problem I felt I faced here was that I didn't have a lot of chips compared to the blinds. I don't think KQ is a strong enough hand to limp with out of position my stack the way it is.

As it turns out, if I had limped I'd have gotten away from the hand very easily

fuzzbox

Iceman78 wrote:

I know a lot of people wont like this play but how about limping in from your position hoping to see a flop. You still have enough chips to get away if you miss the flop.

If you get raised, you will then have option to reraise which can look stronger than if you push all in first or you can lay down if you dont fancy your chances against the opponent.

Obviously trying this tactic depends on how aggressive the table is. If the table is very aggressive, its a waste of time but if its a passive table, you might get away with it.

This aint the greatest tactic ... especially if Im on the table.

5starpool

Limpers this late in a tournie with these type blinds and level times tend only to increase the already high likelyhood of a raise/push from elsewhere preflop.

Tom Hanlon

Hiya Chopper,

What seat were you in on Monday?, I was there too (T10). Just want to put a face to your name!

Tom

ocallagh

it is +EV, you make 5k by this move on average. putting your tournament life on the line also needs to be considered.

The C Kid

My plays in this situation in order of slight preference.

1. Fold
2. Push
3. Pick Up Chair and Try and Impale Myself Upon It
4. Limp
5. Standard Raise.

cardshark202

The C Kid wrote:

My plays in this situation in order of slight preference.

1. Fold
2. Push
3. Pick Up Chair and Try and Impale Myself Upon It
4. Limp
5. Standard Raise.

My plays in order of preference:

1. Push
2. Tank it
3. Move all in

The_Chopper

Tom Hanlon wrote:

Hiya Chopper,

What seat were you in on Monday?, I was there too (T10). Just want to put a face to your name!

Tom

Hi Tom, I was on seat seven I think. I was first out on the final table. I think I was the only one wearing a hat and sunglasses.
I pushed with KQc and got called off the big blind with AA.

Tom Hanlon

ah, gatcha.

see you around.