How to combat a serial raiser in cash games?

Ardent

I'm having difficulty recently in lower limit cash games when it's raised into me and I have a good hand, e.g, AJ, AQ, AK. I'm never sure what the correct play is with these guys. Do I simply call? The problem here is I sometimes don't know where I stand in the hand. Or do I re-raise? You often get guys raising with modest hands and I find re-raising helps sometimes.

But how do you combat this:

.25/.50 on PPP. I have 26E, villain has 50E or thereabouts.

Key moments leading up to this hand is where the villain routinely raises with a weak ace. I double up through him at one stage when I have AK and re-raise him and he puts me all in with A10.

Then this hand. I have AJ on the small blind, the button/villain raises (again) to 1.50E total. I re-raise to 5E. All fold to the raiser who calls. Flop comes K3Q rainbow. I lead out for 5E, he thinks for a bit and calls. Turn is a 9. I check (fatal mistake?) and he goes all in. For some reason I call thinking he's got nothing but he's got 34 off. No help on the river for me and I've lost my stack and I'm left thinking about this hand for the rest of the night.

What's the textbook play here? Was I too predictable? Should I have pushed before he did (I hate going all in unless I have the goods but maybe what I did above was worse)?

Ste05

How many limpers in the pot. You say "all fold to the raiser"

You could easily fold this Pre-flop. It's not a great hand to play with OOP in a raised Pot, and you're not really deep enough to play the hand correctly.

As this hand played out, You needed to fire a second bullet on the turn. Your flop continuation bet was very weak. It's the kind of bet that is either a huge hand or (more often) a cheap attempt to buy the pot. If you're going to represent the K, you need to ask him a proper question, i.e. bet more, I'd say he called planning to put you all-in if you checked the turn. It's a play I often use against shortstacked players. Great for the table image when the table thinks I'm pushing into all the players with these bluffs. But in reality I'm only doing it when my exposure is limited. Also I'll usually just take down the pot (hopefully) but if I'm called then I hopefully will get more business with my big hands later.

Ardent

Thanks for the reply.

1 limper if I remember correctly. He folded pretty quickly after the two raises.

I have to admit, folding AJ in a .25/.50 game to a modest pre-flop raise is an alien concept to me. Maybe it shouldn't be, particularly when OOP, but I knew he was weak in comparison to what I had in my hand and I had to play it.

You're right - I should have fired another bullet after getting myself into this mess. If I was going to look him up to the end I should have been the one firing first all the way. I wasn't that short stacked - I'd have taken half his money if his 3s were no good. I need to sharpen up playing OOP.

Maybe another approach would be not to re-raise OOP and just check the flop regardless of whether you hit or not?

Ste05

Ardent wrote:

I have to admit, folding AJ in a .25/.50 game to a modest pre-flop raise is an alien concept to me. Maybe it shouldn't be, particularly when OOP, but I knew he was weak in comparison to what I had in my hand and I had to play it.

All I'm saying is that, IMO, there's nothing wrong with folding AJ in the SB, because I actually rate position higher, than the value of my cards at these levels. Where I currently inhabit...

Ardent wrote:

You're right - I should have fired another bullet after getting myself into this mess. If I was going to look him up to the end I should have been the one firing first all the way. I wasn't that short stacked - I'd have taken half his money if his 3s were no good. I need to sharpen up playing OOP.

Unfortunately in a cash game you are short stacked with just over half the max. buy-in. And this is where the majority of the problems with this hand arise.

If you raise more than $5 you're almost pot committed, if you raise less than the pot then it looks as weak as it really is and allows a decent opponent to outplay you here. It's a nasty Catch 22 really. Also because of the PF raise and the smooth call, you really haven't defined his hand all that much. (although usually you can dscount 34o ) So you now are playing a big pot (compared to your stack) OOP with a very marginal and dangerous hand.

Ardent wrote:

Maybe another approach would be not to re-raise OOP and just check the flop regardless of whether you hit or not?

Yes, just play it as a drawing hand. It's not the sort of hand you want to really bring to the battlefield, but it's a nice one for picking up a small to medium pot. Actually against this opponent it's a lovely hand to call with. Knowing he's aggressive, and would have a wide opening range, if you hit TPTK, or an A, you can probably extract some value from the hand.

I think you can add alot of worse A's to his range to make this a profitable situation, but IMO you can play it passively (to a degree). Especially given your stack size. If you were both deeper then my opinion might be different. Well, basically I just think you'd have more options but I'd probably play it the same way TBH.

ocallagh

dont bother bluffing players like this. when you make a hand bet it strong and you won't go far wrong.

Continuation bets are fine (not really bluffing..) but if you get any customers slow down. they will call you with bottom pair and while your AK still looks nice it is drawing thin. Tighten up your hands when out of position... let them take a few small pots, they'll think they're winning.

Never check the turn when you feel you are ahead (but not sure)... 90% of the time you are ahead. A lot of the time players at this level will draw to ridiculous hands - inside straights, 4 high flush draws etc etc... so never give them a free card at any stage. Giving your opponent the incorrect odds to call is the easiest way to make money at this level.

Samba

As Ocallagh said, don't bother trying to bluff these guys, unless you move all in, it's the only bet they tend to find hard to call. This is risky and depending how far up the Donkometer he is will decide whether he calls or not.

IMO and experience with terrible players like these, small bluffs don't work, it's push or don't bluff at all and even then tread carefully.

Hectorjelly

folding AJ to a raise is fine and should be your standard play, however folding AJ whether in or out of position to this guy is akin to setting money on fire. Ste you should be ashamed!

Dont try and push players like this off hands, call or reraise with AJ and then only bet if you actually flop something. Let him win the pots where you flop nothing, then get his stack when you flop top pair and he flops bottom pair 4 kicker.

FastMachine

Here's how I deal with guys who constantly raise my blind. You only need to make a play on them once to take back all the cash they've stolen with their raises. And when you show them your not going to be pushed around they'll lay off the stealing a bit.

This is a textbook play I'd use. I wait till I have a half decent hand (just in case I need it and you can bide your time on making the move anyway). Half decent hands would be hands like Ax/suited connectors and suited one gappers/pocket pairs.

If the villain is very bad and will call it I'll make a very big reraise if I have AA or KK and try and get them all in on the flop. Although if they check raise all in on the flop with 36o and hit a gutshot on the river for a 1K pot you wonder should you have bothered.

Generally though you don't want to be committing yourself to the pot with this play as most of the time you'll be doing it with medium hands and you'll hit nothing on the flop. So, usually I'd double their initial raise. Then 9 times out of 10 I'll bet betting the flop. The only times I mightn't bet it are when (a). I hit the flop very hard and I know the villain will bluff his stack to me later on with nothing given the chance(although I'll often bet here too if the villain is the kind who'll be inspired to bluff by a big bet or might go all in with his top pair) and (b) when I've completely missed the flop and I know the villain will call the at least the flop bet - say a KcQs9c flop and I'm holding 6h4h. Might as well let it go here.


So, the initail raise is to $30, I reraise to $90 - $180 in the pot on the flop.
I'd bet between $100 to $160 here depending on what I think is necessary, you really want to end it here whether you've hit it or not. What you want is a low flop as generally the villain will have high cards if he's come this far. If you're called then you usually have to give it up on the turn, don't make the mistake of getting too attached to the bluff because you've so much cash in the pot and end up losing your whole stack. Leave that play to the fish.
The only exception is when you spot a good opportunity, as in representing a flush. Then you can continue the move on the turn with a checkraise all in, although knowing if this will work is very tricky and highly read dependant.

If you have position and make the move with a hand like 5c7c and hit a decent flop, say 2c8c10s, although you have the option of checking it and going for your draw you'd be better off betting hard.

O.K. the villain in your example seems like a complete maniac so the above doesn't really apply to this situation so much. There's no point making moves on maniacs, just get a better hand and, call his big bluff or checkraise all in earlier in the hand if you want to end it there and then.

FastMachine

Ardent wrote:

You're right - I should have fired another bullet after getting myself into this mess. If I was going to look him up to the end I should have been the one firing first all the way. I wasn't that short stacked - I'd have taken half his money if his 3s were no good. I need to sharpen up playing OOP.

Firing another bullet on that board would usually be a be a very bad idea after the villain has called a big flop bet. Give it up there and then. Your villain was total tard so it wasn't really a good idea to make a move on him in the first place.

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

folding AJ to a raise is fine and should be your standard play, however folding AJ whether in or out of position to this guy is akin to setting money on fire. Ste you should be ashamed!

LOL, all I said that I don't think it'd be a mistake to fold here, which I don't really, you'll get his money but this hand allows him the chance to get all of yours.

But as I said I'd just play it passively, I wouldn't re-raise with this stack, and I'd only put more money in the pot if I flopped a hand.

FastMachine wrote:

Firing another bullet on that board would usually be a be a very bad idea after the villain has called a big flop bet. Give it up there and then. Your villain was total tard so it wasn't really a good idea to make a move on him in the first place.

The problem here is, this wasn't a big Flop bet, at these levels this type of small bet is either a monster (which will be followed by a turn bet normally, and hence easy fold) or nothing (which will be followed by a turn check normally, in that case the pot can be picked up with a turn bet, or if you're slightly worried, this nothing hand will be confirmed by a river check or another weak small bet, meaning you can sometimes pick up the pot with a bet on the river. Either way the hand is easy to play in position for a decent player), if I was the Villain in this hand I might easily call here with nothing with the intention of taking the pot away after seeing what happens on the subsequent streets. (Obviously it would all depend on how the OP had played previously and what his image of me was, etc. etc.)

Hence the reasoning why another bullet is needed here. This Villain is aggressive and if he had something he would re-raise on the flop, or call with a mediocre hand. And if you're called again you at least have outs to take the hand down on the river.

FastMachine

Sorry yes, I missed that the flop bet was only $5. So it was only a half pot bet instead of being at least $8, which is what it should have been. A $5 bet serves no purpose here except to build an oop pot and give the impression of weakness.
I still don't think another bullet is what's required though, the op reraised preflop, made the mistake of betting too small and getting called on the flop, and is now looking at two danger cards on the board oop while he holds nothing. It turned out the villain was a total tard but even against an opponent that bad, if he's called preflop and on the flop(the op should've bet bigger, but it probably wouldn't have mattered in this case), I'm giving up my A high. There's just no point making moves on that type of player. He's a caller so get a proper hand and let him call off his stack against that.

MrPillowTalk

FastMachine wrote:

Here's how I deal with guys who constantly raise my blind. You only need to make a play on them once to take back all the cash they've stolen with their raises. And when you show them your not going to be pushed around they'll lay off the stealing a bit.

This is a textbook play I'd use. I wait till I have a half decent hand (just in case I need it and you can bide your time on making the move anyway). Half decent hands would be hands like Ax/suited connectors and suited one gappers/pocket pairs.

If the villain is very bad and will call it I'll make a very big reraise if I have AA or KK and try and get them all in on the flop. Although if they check raise all in on the flop with 36o and hit a gutshot on the river for a 1K pot you wonder should you have bothered.

Generally though you don't want to be committing yourself to the pot with this play as most of the time you'll be doing it with medium hands and you'll hit nothing on the flop. So, usually I'd double their initial raise. Then 9 times out of 10 I'll bet betting the flop. The only times I mightn't bet it are when (a). I hit the flop very hard and I know the villain will bluff his stack to me later on with nothing given the chance(although I'll often bet here too if the villain is the kind who'll be inspired to bluff by a big bet or might go all in with his top pair) and (b) when I've completely missed the flop and I know the villain will call the at least the flop bet - say a KcQs9c flop and I'm holding 6h4h. Might as well let it go here.


So, the initail raise is to $30, I reraise to $90 - $180 in the pot on the flop.
I'd bet between $100 to $160 here depending on what I think is necessary, you really want to end it here whether you've hit it or not. What you want is a low flop as generally the villain will have high cards if he's come this far. If you're called then you usually have to give it up on the turn, don't make the mistake of getting too attached to the bluff because you've so much cash in the pot and end up losing your whole stack. Leave that play to the fish.
The only exception is when you spot a good opportunity, as in representing a flush. Then you can continue the move on the turn with a checkraise all in, although knowing if this will work is very tricky and highly read dependant.

If you have position and make the move with a hand like 5c7c and hit a decent flop, say 2c8c10s, although you have the option of checking it and going for your draw you'd be better off betting hard.

O.K. the villain in your example seems like a complete maniac so the above doesn't really apply to this situation so much. There's no point making moves on maniacs, just get a better hand and, call his big bluff or checkraise all in earlier in the hand if you want to end it there and then.

Some great info on you there fast Going straight in my notes on you

FastMachine

Heheh, you'll have to figure out who I am first though..... And I'll only be making this move with AA or KK on you pillow so make sure you fold the flop.

AmarilloFats

Hi Ardent,
I notice you only have 50big blinds...
I would prefer to have 100 big blinds( or table max) and match villain's stack.
The difficulty one can get into with villains like this is if you raise their blind steal with AK AQ and the flop comes ragragrag (as it alway does) wot to do ???well with 50bb if you raise him the appropriate amount preflop(maybe allin is good) it makes the flop play alot easier regardless of whether u hit or not...
and get position on him, sit to his left...

AmarilloFats

Hi Ardent,
I notice you only have 50big blinds...
I would prefer to have 100 big blinds( or table max) and match villain's stack.
The difficulty one can get into with villains like this is if you raise their blind steal with AK AQ and the flop comes ragragrag (as it alway does) wot to do ???well with 50bb if you raise him the appropriate amount preflop(maybe allin is good) it makes the flop play alot easier regardless of whether u hit or not...
and get position on him, sit to his left...

ianmc38

FastMachine wrote:

Heheh, you'll have to figure out who I am first though.....

I think the Tribeca username "Fastmachine" is a bit of a giveaway.

FastMachine

Nah, I'm not called FastMachine anymore, I switched sites for rakeback.

Ardent

Lads,

Thanks for the advice. The main points seem to be:

1) Sit down with the appropraite buy in, e.g., minimium 50$ at .25/.50
2) Wait for a decent hand and when your blind is raised again, min raise him - have a fair pop at the flop if it doesn't look too scary.
3) Don't hit back at the guy post flop without at least some semblance of a hand

Some of these guys at .25/.50 are crazy though - some will re-raise you all in when you make a stand. Although another solution is to just walk away from a table when you feel the opponents are not to your liking, I think this is a good learning experience and will help me make a better all round player.

Thanks for the advice lads.

Ste05

Ardent wrote:

2) Wait for a decent hand and when your blind is raised again, min raise him - have a fair pop at the flop if it doesn't look too scary.

I wouldn't say a min-raise is the answer, if your raising, raise properly, (unless you are trying to build a pot or some other reason for wanting to raise the minimum).

Basically, just try to remember if you are raising, RAISE. These small crappy little raises and bets serve no purpose other than to give your opponent either; odds to chase; room to outplay you; or to minimise the potential pay-off's for your good hands.

ocallagh

Ardent wrote:

Lads,
2) Wait for a decent hand and when your blind is raised again, min raise him - have a fair pop at the flop if it doesn't look too scary.

FastMachine's advice won't work so well at 0.25/0.50.

Iceman78

I think you are right there OCallagh as most people on 0.25/0.5 dont understand min raises and it is very seldom you will see people fold to a min raise.

Ste05

Iceman78 wrote:

I think you are right there OCallagh as most people on 0.25/0.5 dont understand min raises and it is very seldom you will see people fold to a min raise.

What's not to understand?? At this level it's a mistake. (EDIT: Unless there's a reason behind it. i.e. building a pot/ inducing a raise from a maniac, etc.)