Labour court help.

Dotsie~tmp

Im a tradesman and im up in the labour court with my father soon. Heres the story. For the past three years im working for my father as i serve my time. The idea was in a year or so from now we then form a partnership or two sole traders relationship not employer/employee. Everythings going fine until a crowd called EPACE came calling around (private company employed by Construction Industry Federation to ensure all industry employees are in the MANDATORY BY LAW CFOPS pension and sick pay scheme). The reported us to the TEEU (electrical union) for me not being in the scheme, we honestly didnt know we were busy enough trying to get this new business off the ground and making money.

(Side note: I have no wish to be part of this pension scheme as i see it as being poor value for money and intend looking after my own insurance and retirment interests)

In hindsight we should have just had a Partnership or Sub-contractor relationship from the start but didnt know if that would affect my apprentice status. As it turned out it wouldnt have. So we then get summoned to Labour court. Its obvious from the proceedings that common sense doesnt get a hearing there. I try to explain i have no interest in this pension. That im not going to be employed much longer and will be co owner soon. So we say to the TEEU guy if we just sub to this pension scheme will that take the heat of the potential "investigation" go away. Me thinking that ill just pay the 40 odd quid a week for a bit and when i get let go and become self employed withdraw from a scheme i never wanted anything to do with.

So we register with CFOPS the a bill arrives for €2,300 worth of back payments which were never mentioned! Ive kinda had it with this bureaucracy. They want €2,300 of MY money for a pension for ME which im never going to collect, dont want and am being forced to pay. Surely i have a right to waiver this money as very soon (we have started the process and ill be let go from company in a few days and we're registering a partnership) ill no longer be an employee subject to registered employment agreements.

So here it is. Next time we go i presume they will have to drop the part about getting us to comply and putting me in pension because im not longer a construction employee. However when i called EPACE to inform them they were quite agressive and informed me they would still be going after the arrears! Going after me for arrears on my own pension that i dont want. These guys seem like debt collectors.

I really have no idea how to communicate this to the labour counrt judges as last time they were saying yes yes we understand but we are constrained by the law. Will they not even hear us out and forget the arrears? If they dont i loose €2,300 by i cant afford for no benefit. I dont see it for 40 years by which time it wont buy a toaster.

Sorry if this seems like a rant but the irish legal system just seem so unfair to me. Were just trying to get a business going and make a living. Any advice on how to conduct ourslves is welcomed. We are afraid that the court might order us to pay maximum arrears of around €6,500 as this is what EPACE also threatened on the phone.

One more note: Its The TEEU union thats taking us to the court, EPACE rep sits behind. The union guy is very unco-operative. He say hes got a pain in the arse with these EPACE (privately) guys and i get the feeling he wishes we would just pay the money and get one more case off his back.

- I understand that any replys are just opinion and will not rely on them as legal advice.

Dotsie.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Found the 1st paragraph a bit confusing as to the business relationship you had with your father before and after your apprenticeship. I haven't a clue about the legislation, but here's a few questions, the answers to which might help you out;

1) At the time you were reported to the union for not being registered in the scheme, had you completed your apprecticeship?

I ask because i would hazard a guess that the legislation the trade union is working with, would NOT apply to apprentices, because they aren't qualified and im not sure they can be trade union members?? I.e. they don't really have many rights and i don't think they would commit you to a pension scheme before you'd qualified.

2) Have you sought the advice of a solicitor? If you had someone to go over the pensions scheme legislation they might be able to find a loophole for you, so that you could avoid the arrears.

3) Did you or your father have any written declaration of intentions to become partners once you became qualified? e.g. you might have been in his will as the benefactor of his business upon you finishing your apprecticeship?

If you were in the will, you may be able to argue your mutual intentions never to have an employer/employee relationship.Hope some of this is useful.

Dotsie~tmp

1/ No i hadnt and still have not completed it. Though i think the registered employment agreement applies to everyone not just aprentices but am not positive.

2/ No have not contacted solicitor. Am wondering if i did would it end up costing even more. I was thinking its surely my right though to decide to opt out of any supposedly beneficial scheme and spend my money as i see fit.

3/ No he didnt be we are completely agreed on this. If we had known that we could have started off the business as a partnership or contractor/subcontractor we would have but thought that apprentices had to be employees (its only necessary for a fully qualified person to be supervising the aprentice). The intention was always to teminate the employer/employee relationship as soon as the apprenticeship ended. We only really got into the first relationship because he started the company a before i joined as i was finishing my college course. I have in fact been working with him part time undocumented many years before my time started.

We have an excellent personal and working relationship so all are dealing are by word and mutual understanding.

Can you tell me if this comes to a hearing will the court hear these arguments or merely stick rigidly to the letter of the law and see me as an employee even though i have a full hand in the running of the company? If i contact a solicitor will it cost more than the ~€2,300? Can i hope to competently agrue this case with zero legal knowledge.

Dots.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

I have no idea weather the court would listen to your arguments, to be fair you don't seem to have much evidence to support your claims, so they'd have to take you on your word.

Again, i can't say for sure, but if you hired a solicitor familiar with employment law and the relevant legislation, i'd say it would cost less that the €2300. But he should be able to give you a rough quote.

I wouldn't suggest arguing the case yourself. Unless you find out that the legislation doens't apply to apprentices (and i can't understand why it would) so that might be your best way out. I would get a proper legal opinion on it 1st though.

Good luck.

Thirdfox

If you want to go it by yourself find out the relevant legislation first (check the legal resourses thread on this forum).

I've been told by my lecturers that judges will bend over backwards for people who wish to take their own cases, allowing minor mistakes etc. that would normally result in a case being thrown out.

Then again I wouldn't be comfortable with taking a case without having proper legal advice - at least talk to a solicitor first.

Victor

Dotsie~tmp wrote:

1/ No i hadnt and still have not completed it. Though i think the registered employment agreement applies to everyone not just aprentices but am not positive.

For construction employees, the scheme is compulsory, just like tax and PRSI.

There is no defence for breaking the law, although you might try to claim mitigation. That you work for your father, specificly puts you into a risk category.

There is also a CIF Exceutive Pension Scheme that may suit you needs better.