Chrstian/Agnostic

edavey8208

I am dealing with an issue that i had seen on here earlier, but can't find it now, however i need some advice. I was seeing a guy that is still very much part of my life. And we are trying to work things up, but christianity continually comes up and is a nasty topic with us.

Here is a little background before the question...

I grew up in a christian home, went to a christian university and have always been close to the church. I considered the people at church just as much family as my actual family. I have been a christian pretty much my whole life. I did go throw some obstacles, but then who hasn't. I accept that there are some questions that just can't be answered and i have faith to accept that.

This guy i was seeing, i love very much, but he is not where i am. He wants to know why God created him, for what purpose? He feels God is selfish and created him out of loneliness. I don't know how to handle this. So therefore, he doesn't accept God, which breaks my heart. I know it is a personal choice and each person must decide God or not, but the very nature of my heart as a christian is to want to win the lives of those close to me and else where. He doesn't think it should matter. We love each other and should respect each others decisions.

True, but kids. I want to take my kids to church hear the bible stories and have a second family. I think they should have to go until they are 18. But guy thinks they shouldn't go at all until they are old enough to ask if they want to go. GRRRR.

I don't want to go every sunday and be there by myself, while my husband is at home. I don't want to cry over him. I want to be able to share my beliefs and talk about issues in the church and devotions we have had. And things that God is revealing in unique ways. But then I know i can't save the whole world and yes right now he doesn't believe in God, but he has questions, like most of us go through, he may become a christian later. If I walk away and end up married down the road my husband may decide against christianity and change while we are married. So how is it any different.

I know that in the new testament it is written that the yoke of a nonbeliever and believer should not be joined. But is this not just a warning that it will be harder and may be more stressful then a marriage of 2 believers. Well let me tell you I am tough.

I don't know, I'm so confused. I need advice...any at all. I just need to hear different sides to the issue and maybe something will click and help this situation out.

larryone

I can empathise to a certain degree. My girlfriend is a Muslim, and according to Islam she cant marry a "disbeliever". I am a pantheist, and I see Abrahamic religions as having a very closed and limited view of God. Where children are concerned, I would tend to encourage them to view God from as many different points of view as possible, and encourage them to go with what spiritual path feels natural for them - even if it's one that leads them to Atheism. My girlfriend wont see things this way - and would probably want to encourage a more Islam-oriented approach. Open-minded and honest discussion of these things is the only way to resolve them. You say maybe he will change, but are you willing to change at all? I know it's difficult, but I also think it's going to involve alot of give and take on both sides....

Scofflaw

I'm an atheist (as was my father, although my mother was Catholic), and I'm quite in favour of my daughter receiving religious education - if she prefers it to my atheism, fine. My wife, on the other hand, is a non-worshipper, and a good deal stickier on the matter.

Is he actually an atheist, or just a non-worshipper? Does he regard his beliefs as intellectually superior to Christianity? Was he brought up a Christian? Does he think that church is a sham?

You could put it to him that kids should have something to believe in. If it's nonsense, as he seems to think, they should grow out of it, as they do Santa Claus (is he against Santa too?).

It's quite possible you'll never get the whole-hearted acceptance that you'd like, but it's quite possible that you'll get the kids to church...

cordially,
Scofflaw

JimiTime

I am a believer in The Word but not a member of any religious order.
God should be the most important thing in our lives! Only you know if this man will compromise this principle for either you or your children. If you think it will, there the answer lies, if you think it won't, there the answer lies. Maybe you should get him to post some of his questions on the board and we'll see if we can help him to turn the page:) I'll say a prayer that you resolve it with satisfaction.

samb

edavey8208 wrote:

He wants to know why God created him, for what purpose? He feels God is selfish and created him out of loneliness. I don't know how to handle this. So therefore, he doesn't accept God, which breaks my heart. QUOTE]

This sentance confuses me. It sounds from this like he does believe in God but has a big problem with that belief. If this is right then he is not an athiest or agnostic, but a religious person whose religuos beliefs are troubling to him.

edavey8208

This is the boy in question. My name is Kevin.

Ok. I am not 100% in my thoughts at the moment. So if something seems off or doesnt make sense please no flaming.

I am pretty much agnostic, boardering on atheism. I think that there may be a God. I am not really sure. I have been to church, and in my younger days "felt" the holy ghost. However, I feel it was more of a fabricated emotion than an actual "touching" if you will.

My current place in life is negating christianity rather than seeking anything new. The reason for this is because: #1 it is a major thing in America #2 Because the girl believes it.

So. She pretty much got what I feel right. If, and that is an if so please don't say well he did because you believe it and I don't, God created me there is no reason anyone or God could give me to justify it. Flat out, I didn't ask to be here. I had no choice in the matter. God in my eyes is selfish, maybe he was bored or maybe lonely. I am not sure. However, giving me an existence that makes no sense whatsoever and expecting me to just accept it and him for doing it isn't ok for me.

I have yet to be able to find the words that describe what I feel exactly. It is a tough concept and difficult to explain. However I do understand what I feel.

For some, this may seem like a pretty pessimistic way of thinking. I don't feel like I need a justification for my existence. I am here, I don't know why, ok. Some also may think that I have no joy, or that I can't have joy without God(She said this to me the other day actually) and to that I say nay. I love life and it is fantastic, I enjoy every aspect of it both good and bad. So please spare me the "You are joyless" or something to that effect comments.

I also don't feel that not having God makes me a bad person, or not as nice as one could be. Again, spare my ears (eyes in this case) the trouble of this. Because good and bad is subjective and no one has the right to judge that. All i know is that I am who I want to be.

I don't really know if I will ever accept God in the way Christians see it. However at this point in my life I don't.

On the kids issue. I do not feel that my kids should go to church. When they feel they should be religious, ok. However raising them with it is not fair. Most people either. A: Never even question what it is they believe because they have been brainwashed to think otherwise B: They do question it and that brings them heat because they maybe drop out for awhile to find themselves C: Completely drop it. And this is a stance I will have, even if I do become Christian because what is right for me is not right for everyone else. It is not my place to tell someone how things should be. Religion is a personal choice and I plan to safeguard that for my children.

That is about it for now. Just to give you a litte more about myself. Thanks for taking the time to reply and I look forward to discussing this with you.

Kevin

Asiaprod

Sorry to be the one to say this, but both of you had better open your eyes and take a good loooong look at your current situation.I cannot help but feel that there is a lot of pushing going on by both of you. I really hope you can both talk this message to heart and sit down and talk about it

You boy friend says "He feels God is selfish and created him out of loneliness. I don't know how to handle this. So therefore, he doesn't accept God, which breaks my heart." This is confusing, if you think God created you out of loneliness, that implies you believe in God, but do not accept God. That's a very strange position to adopt (God is real, but I don't accept him). If you do believe in God, then it is just a matter of education on the correct beliefs re God.

But I do not believe this to be the case. You say you are very tough, that springs from being very sure in you convictions, and that may be one of the problems. You seem to have a very clear idea of what you want, especially clear when it comes to children. But what about your own family and church members, how will they view all this. What do they want. Will they accept a compromised situation. Can they accept their grandchildren not going to mass etc? Can you protect your future husband and kids from misplaced ideas of saving him/them by these people if they do not believe in your God? The children, speaking as a father myself, could be the ones to suffer the most here. They will require very special handling. How will you deal with this Kevin? Kids spen lots of time with mother, are you going to stop them going to mass?
I've seen this situation before and it ended in misery for everyone involved.

I believe that you both really need to sit down and discuss how this marriage will work if you have both such conflicting ideas. If you are sure that above all else this is the person you want to spend your life with and raise a family, you need to clear any thought of conversion down the road out of this current issue. You may well manage to do this later on, but don't make a decision to marry under the assumption that it will happen. It may never happen. Not to be too negative, I did manage this with my wife and it was a lot more complicated that your current situation given that fact that not only was I a different belief system than here family, I was also not of the same culture (I am Irish and a Buddhist and she is Japanese and we met and live in Japan. Now she is also a Bhuddist as is my daughter). If you can adopt an approach of talking each point through, understanding that you both may have to compromise, there is no reason why you cant both be very happy. On the other hand, if you feel you cannot compromise, yet go ahead with the idea hoping something will change later you could be making a very big mistake that will have pretty lasting repercussions.

There are many many mixed religion marriages out there and they work splendidly, but they all require that both parties compromise. Time spent as a family does change things over time, and everybody has the right to achieve their dream. Can you compromise on your dreams and be happy having done it? If you can, go for it. Sit down and talk it through. Talk to priests ....what ever it takes.

On a personal note, I do not recommend this issue be handles via posts here on the forum. Things can get weird here and strange comment like, is homosexuality a sin....(a slap for someone), can inadvertently slip into the debate from time to time. These are not issues that you need to hear or deal with right now. For the moment your issue is a very private one. First talk and plan what you want to do together, then by all means post away when you are both happy with the course of action you have decided upon, or if you need to hear an opinion on something. Good luck, its a tough one, but everyone can be a winner with a little honest heart-to-heart talk and a little compromise. This is a mature issue with life-long consequence for both of you. Deal with it appropriately by talking amongst yourselves and your families. List what you can agree on, list what you cant. Then go seek advice on the troubling issues. Sorry for any strong language, it is not meant to offend, I take your situation very seriously, I want to make sure you both do also.

Excelsior

edavey8208 wrote:

Ok. I am not 100% in my thoughts at the moment. So if something seems off or doesnt make sense please no flaming.

No worries here. All the replies so far have come from non-Christians and they have shown you a great deal of respect (even the one that was rampantly off topic).

kevin wrote:

I am pretty much agnostic, boardering on atheism. I think that there may be a God. I am not really sure. I have been to church, and in my younger days "felt" the holy ghost. However, I feel it was more of a fabricated emotion than an actual "touching" if you will.

I had the very same experience. I was an atheist who accounted for my experience of the Holy Ghost as "projection". But as an adult I opened myself up to the idea of God and found that experience again without any doubt of projection.

Kevin wrote:

So. She pretty much got what I feel right. If, and that is an if so please don't say well he did because you believe it and I don't, God created me there is no reason anyone or God could give me to justify it. Flat out, I didn't ask to be here. I had no choice in the matter. God in my eyes is selfish, maybe he was bored or maybe lonely. I am not sure. However, giving me an existence that makes no sense whatsoever and expecting me to just accept it and him for doing it isn't ok for me.

I don't think it weird at all that you claim to be an atheist and still think this way about an "IF" God. I think that is honesty and I don't fully believe most people who boldly claim atheism and deny that they have thought processes like yours. I don't trust them because I was where you were.

But maybe if you look at it this way: IF God is who we think he might be, an all perfect, all loving, all powerful being, then creating creatures who could share in his gloriously loving, powerful perfection is the most generous thing he could possibly do. IF this God were to exist, he WOULD make us (or something like us), not out of loneliness but because good beings want to share their goodness. That is part of what being good is all about.

I think you have a fairly obvious purpose from this wrestling you are involved in. Both you and the girl have been called to love each other and I think your appetite for dealing with these very complex, hard things is evidence of that. Beyond that, I can have no idea why you are here.

I have no idea if the way I look at it helps you to see things clearly. I do hope it helps some way.

Kevin wrote:

Because good and bad is subjective and no one has the right to judge that.

But you have made an objective statement about good and bad. You claim the right to judge it. Good and bad can't be subjective all the way down. Some things are right for some people some of the time but there must be an over-arching good to make any cultural, moral or relational life possible.

Kevin wrote:

Religion is a personal choice and I plan to safeguard that for my children.

But we all have beliefs and you cannot leave your children free of belief systems. Keep them out of church all you like, but you will still be communicating your belief system and they will be immersed completely in it.

If you or your girlfriend want to have this discussion, I would strongly advise you to take it to pm with myself and some other users (perhaps our resident mature Buddhist, Asiaprod). This will eventually become a battleground where your original purpose in posting is forgotten and secondary debates rage.

Akrasia

Excelsior wrote:

No worries here. All the replies so far have come from non-Christians and they have shown you a great deal of respect (even the one that was rampantly off topic).

Yeah, sorry about that. I don't remember writing that at all, I have no idea what was going through my mind. (i think south park might have been on)
I was pretty drunk (family get together)

Asiaprod

Akrasia wrote:

Yeah, sorry about that. I don't remember writing that at all, I have no idea what was going through my mind. (i think south park might have been on)
I was pretty drunk (family get together)

Yes, South Park can be bad for your health I make it a point not to write when I am watching South Park;)

edavey8208

Asiaprod wrote:

First talk and plan what you want to do together, then by all means post away when you are both happy with the course of action you have decided upon, or if you need to hear an opinion on something.

We have tried to talk about, but i am having a very hard time with it. I have never been exposed to this. I have never fallen in love and considered spending the rest of my life with someone that does not believe in a loving God. I have been around christians pretty much my entire life and pretty much all family is christian.

I have talked to my mother. She loves kevin very much and sees this being a very tough decision. She doesn't neccesarily wants me to marry a non believer, but in the end wants me to make my own decision. And will love me and kevin no matter what.

I mean i would walk away from the whole thing right now if kevin was a drunk, potty mouth, etc. But he is not. He at the core is a good person. And in some ways living a better life then some Christians. Many have secrets and live 2 lives. This is what makes it so hard.

My father on the other hand is not so open. I don't feel he will accept it. Which hurts very much. My family is so important to me. I mean i may very well be wrong, my father and i don't really talk on a personal level much.

The only example i have this far to look at is the women that come to church by themselves and cry for their husbands and children. How is that any way to live? And then my aunt, she married a man that was close to becoming a christian and then was in a serious accident and fell away (blaming God) and my family pities her. I don't want people to fell sorry for me. I don't want family feel they can't be around kevin and I because he views things differently.

And yes i am praying for guidiance and strength, but there is just so much in my head and so much around me that I don't know what is God wants me to do. I suppose i am looking for a hint or something you know.

Asiaprod

edavey8208 wrote:

We have tried to talk about, but i am having a very hard time with it.

While I think on this more, as I am sure others will also, I would at this stage offer my opinion on a couple of the points you raised, just for you to be thinking about:)

Firstly, you are worrying far to much on what your family and relatives will do or act. The truth is you do not know for sure. You are also right now planing your own future. Much as I hate to say it, a time will come when they are all gone and it will be down to you and any siblings you have to continue on. This is real life. The choices you make now, are life choices. Make them for you and your dream.

I have a feeling that you need to talk to your Dad ( Mum sounds ok)and explain these points you have listed and let him know that you need his support to be able to deal with them. Get him to really see that this is important to you (if its not don't say it as any bad action has a repercussion somewhere). Thats the bitch, so the worst one is over. Secret tip, when grandchildren enter stage left, the animosity, disappointment, whatever, exits stage right. Men are suckers under it all.

The issue of God could resolve itself much more naturally if rather than to push or force the issue, you were to set an example of how you, with your back ground and experience of God, thinks God would expect you to act. (Buddha forgive me, I also watched South Park tonight). Don't forget, you're marrying the guy, any conversion should be a surprise bonus. This stuff about women crying in their church is very sad. So you really should determine that you are not going down that road. You make your own choice to create your own slice of life, f**k what others think. (they all thought Buddhists don't cuss...wrong). If this is your guy, and getting married to him gives you what you really want, then go for it. But remember why you married him, and let any changes that happen occur naturally. The one thing you DO have to talk about is the issue of the kids.
For the record, my sisters kid just made her confirmation, having announced to the entire family that she had decided to become a Buddhist after watching the Life of Buddha on Discovery Channel. She had a great day, made a lot of money, and when she got home re declared that she was still going to become a Buddhist, but that money was ok to have. The point, children bounce, just like Tiggers, but they need a secure family.

Good luck with Dad, let me know how it went .

MOGSA

I see the last post is some days ago but here is my two cents worth:

1) You are correct about the duplicity of so-called christians

2) Your dad probably knows the heartache that will stem from the lack of spiritual covering in your new household - it will allow Satan to come in and deceive and destroy very easily

3) The husband needs to be the spiritual high priest of the home and then to submit to his elders in the Church because we are too weak as humans to do it ourselves. Bet most people never got told about spiritual covering at church or at home.

Remember that objections are really queries that havent been fulfilled - but, most of all, ask God! Be still! and wait for the answer - there is a song that states : 'God will find a way, when there simply is no way'

Prayer is the greatest weapon against the unknown ever!

edavey8208

Thank you for the advice:)

Cantab.

Me personally, I would not marry a non-Catholic. Mind you if my wife was a protestant or something similar but accepted that the children were to be raised Catholic, I could consider. There's no way I could reconcile myself in a loving relationship with a muslim/buddhist/agnostic/atheist/etc.

MOGSA

edavey8208 wrote:

Kevin wrote :

God created me there is no reason anyone or God could give me to justify it. Flat out, I didn't ask to be here. I had no choice in the matter. God in my eyes is selfish, maybe he was bored or maybe lonely. I am not sure. However, giving me an existence that makes no sense whatsoever and expecting me to just accept it and him for doing it isn't ok for me.

For some, this may seem like a pretty pessimistic way of thinking. I don't feel like I need a justification for my existence. I am here, I don't know why, ok. I don't really know if I will ever accept God in the way Christians see it. However at this point in my life I don't.

Hi ... I went thru these same issues much later in life without the complications of a christian partner hassling me as well. So I can imagine the turmoil in your mind.

Look on your relationship with God the same way as you fitted into your own family (provided, of course, it was a normal family environment). Your parents didnt need you either:

• to cook the food or clean the house unless it was to teach you to share the workload or skills as part of your growing up
• make sure the bills were paid etc
• to wonder where the next paycheck was coming from

Did you ever have to decide on your purpose in the family as a child?

Probably not, so your parents unconditionally wanted and loved you, protected and fed you! God does the same - unconditionally - He doesnt need you to be anything.

As your creator, He wants however to have a relationship with you as any parent would. How would your parents feel if you just ignored them 24/7?

Purpose in life?
In my world (that is different to even other christians) I see the purpose on earth to be centered around four issues:

1) to just be a child of God and to enjoy it - like a child in a large family where the father protects you and provides the resources - in this case unlimited resources!

2) to live acording to the Abrahamic Covenant where God says something like : 'I will bless so that you may be a blessing'. The emphasis is on 'that you may be a blessing' (Genenis 12:2) - obviously to others.

3) to undertake the sole purpose in life that all people have - apart from the environmental issues in 1 & 2 above. This is to undertake the purpose/plan that God has specially for me - a very personal issue between Him and me. In order to do so, I have to be able to hear what he is instructing me to do as well as get feedback and guidence, so I need a relationship with Him. He is God Almighty and therefore I need an intermediatory - a go between - so this is where Jesus comes in.

4) to grow this relationship with Him

I know that these issues are the same for everyone - but God still gave you the choice to accept or reject His 'fatherhood'. He will always be present in your life, even if you reject Him and will be available 24/7 when you need Him.

Another 2 cents worth. I can only tell you how it works for me and saved my bacon!

Remember what a 'crisis' is : it is a series of smaller problems that, combined, appear to be insurmountable. Break your crisis into smaller problems, prioritise them and deal with them one by one. Take your time - as a younger person, time is still on your side.

Zombrex

edavey8208 wrote:

I am pretty much agnostic, boardering on atheism. I think that there may be a God. I am not really sure.
...
However, giving me an existence that makes no sense whatsoever and expecting me to just accept it and him for doing it isn't ok for me.
...
I have yet to be able to find the words that describe what I feel exactly. It is a tough concept and difficult to explain. However I do understand what I feel.

Sounds like to me you are considering two things

1 - There might not be a God (gods) at all

2 - Even if there is a God why should you worship him?

The 2nd question is interesting. When I was young, before I become a full atheists, and I still was considering that God might exist I asked exactly the same question. Why do I owe God anything, especaily something as big as worship? Am I not an fully sentient intelligent being, am I not equal to anything, even a god. What makes him above me?

I can't answer that question, since i don't know and now I don't even believe in God. But I think it is an interesting question, one that you are right in asking.

edavey8208 wrote:

For some, this may seem like a pretty pessimistic way of thinking.

Don't let anyone tell you it is.

You will hear that atheists/agnostics have no hope in life, no purpose to their lives, no morals, that we are bad people, that we must be unhappy, that we must be depressed etc because we don't follow a religion.

All of that is of course ********.

If you are interested there is an atheist forum on Boards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614