Fitz €270 hand, bad flop for AA

RoundTower

Early in the tourney last night.

Blinds 50-100. I have 9000. I have AA UTG+1. I have already had AA once and limped UTG and called a reraise and the hand got shown down, so I am definitely doing something different here. I have been squeaky tight so far.

I make it 300. Folded around to a player in MP who has 7000 or so. I think he posts here sometimes. I haven't played with him much but if he is the same guy, he overplays hands in cash games. He makes it 800. Folded back to me.

I didn't really like calling here with so much left and OOP, so I make it 2000. He calls. Flop is QJ9 no suits. What is my plan?

fuzzbox

Oh dear thats disgusting.

.
Pot is 4k now though, and he only has 5k left, he didnt have set odds, and he doesnt have to have any of QQ/JJ/99. He could easily have TT/KK here (or AK or AQ ???, or 88 maybe?)

Just set him in and be done with it.

cardshark202

So theres about 4k in the pot and he has 5k left. Would cr all in be a wise move?

Check. if he bets, all in. if he checks, maybe push the turn as he doesnt have much more than the pot left. I think checking here seems to be the best play though I could be very wrong.
Those are just my thoughts.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

So theres about 4k in the pot and he has 5k left. Would cr all in be a wise move?

Check. if he bets, all in. if he checks, maybe push the turn as he doesnt have much more than the pot left. I think checking here seems to be the best play though I could be very wrong.
Those are just my thoughts.

No need to give TT a free card here. (or KK) or AQ etc.
Pot is too big to mess about with.

Hectorjelly

Well it could be worse and you have put in almost 1/4 of your stack in preflop. If he is aggressive id check raise all in. I dont see how you can fold given that he will still give you action with AQ TT and KK, if he is likely to have folded AQ and reraised with KK then a fold might be in order.

Id prefer a bigger reraise preflop.

fuzzbox

I dont like check/raise ... he can see the board as well as you can ... do you think you are getting action from any hands that you would not otherwise get action from ?

Do you think 88 bets when you raise utg+1, then 3-bet, and check a QJ9 flop?

Doc Farrell

All you can eat baby!

he's got pocket jacks or queens is my guess. in which case that explains my tourney mishaps recently. still...

ALL YOU CAN EAT BABY!

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

Do you think 88 bets when you raise utg+1, then 3-bet, and check a QJ9 flop?

yes - you could have AK and hes ahead, or AJ or some otherhand and be worried about being behind. Also he doesnt sound like a good player - who knows what goes through their heads in situations like this

cardshark202

Just in case he has a pop at it with AK or in case he folds (though it may be unlikely) AQ after you bet into a flop seemingly unworried. I just think he may pot commit himself to a few hands he wouldn't otherwise if you bet out.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

yes - you could have AK and hes ahead, or AJ or some otherhand and be worried about being behind. Also he doesnt sound like a good player - who knows what goes through their heads in situations like this

You would have a right pain in ur head if you checked, he checked 88 behind, and the turn was a T ........ huh

Daithio

I hate this hand. I definitely would have pushed preflop. If he's rraising you then he more than likely has a hand he'll call an all in with, especially considering your tight image and early position raise. I really doubt he has KK, any decent player would push preflop. AK, JJ and QQ are the only three hands I can see him rraising you with pre and not pushing with after your rrraise. I'd check and see what he does. If he bets I think I'd give the pot up to him. I don't think he's gonna fire here with AK considering your raise preflop, he'd much rather take a free card and hope to hit a ten if he has any clue how to play. If he has QQ of JJ he should bet on this board. If he checks behind I'd try and keep it as cheap as possible on the turn and river, and hope for a tell if he does bet, re evaluating the situation then.

Gholimoli

i honestly dont think he has KK here.i feel if he had KK he would have pushed preflop.maybe there is a little chance he wanted to see a none A flop and then push but i doubt it.
AQ,AJ and all that i cant see him calling your reraise with crap like that.
that leaves pocket pairs.it must have been big to reraise you and then call your reraise with it as well.which means QQ,JJ .
there are players who would play like this with any PP even TT here or would even play AQ this way but mostly bad players .very bad players.so unless you have a read on him to say he was that bad i think your beat.
what happend any way?

RoundTower

I bet 2000 and he instantly pushed for 3000 more. Can I honestly consider folding here?

cardshark202

RoundTower wrote:

I bet 2000 and he instantly pushed for 3000 more. Can I honestly consider folding here?

No. He probably has AQ or something.

Hectorjelly

cardshark202 wrote:

No. He probably has QQ or something.

Fixed your post - I dont think you can fold in this spot anyway, if theres even a small chance you are ahead you must call. It doesnt really matter anyway, he put in too much of his stack in preflop to play for set value.

RoundTower

I was almost certain I was behind to QQ or JJ. Really I was hoping he had KK. I called and he had TT and my hand stood up.

I don't think you should think "it's OK because I made him put in too much to play for set value". If you're behind you should still fold. Yes, your play is unexploitable if you always raise to 1/7 of your stack and push any flop with AA, but that doesn't mean its optimal.

Two things about what you said Dave:
a) do you really think I should push preflop? He only has 800 committed and surely he can get away from JJ/QQ/AK now.
b) do you think he should push preflop if he has KK? Similarly to a) I will rarely make a mistake here. I would normally call in his position with KK. Possibly I would push AK.

Maybe I'm not being enough of a tournament donkey here.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

I don't think you should think "it's OK because I made him put in too much to play for set value". If you're behind you should still fold. Yes, your play is unexploitable if you always raise to 1/7 of your stack and push any flop with AA, but that doesn't mean its optimal.

No but in a situation where you are offered such attractive pot odds that folding is out of the question you can console yourself afterwards with the thought that it was your opponent who made the significent mistake and not you

Marq

I really dislike checking the flop here - considering the pre-flop action, a lead on the flop is the best way to make money if you are ahead. There are an awful lot of turn cards that could make the board too scary for you to bet or him to call.

I also disagree with Daithio that raising all-in pre-flop is the best strategy - you have the nuts and a player that wants to give you action, why give him the chance to get away from the hand?

I think that once you raise to 2000 and he calls, there are very few flops where it is incorrect to lead.

cardshark202

Marq wrote:

I really dislike checking the flop here - considering the pre-flop action, a lead on the flop is the best way to make money if you are ahead. There are an awful lot of turn cards that could make the board too scary for you to bet or him to call.

I also disagree with Daithio that raising all-in pre-flop is the best strategy - you have the nuts and a player that wants to give you action, why give him the chance to get away from the hand?

I think that once you raise to 2000 and he calls, there are very few flops where it is incorrect to lead.

I disagree with this. Checking may induce a bluff and if you are behind he bets anyway. If you plan on going for broke on this flop then checking to see the turn first shouldn't matter. You may also get action off something like AJ and KK will definately commit to the hand if you check. So you give him a chance to bluff and a chance to pot-commit himself with the worst hand aswell as giving him less of a chance to get away from other holdings.

Marq

this isn't a very nice flop for aces. if you check, he checks behind, and an eight, nine, ten, queen, jack or king come down, what would then be your plan for the hand?

Let him make a mistake: so many hands in your opponents range should be made to pay to see another card.

Hectorjelly

i didnt realise how much is in the pot, I think with the pot so big checking would be a big mistake

cardshark202

Marq wrote:

Let him make a mistake: so many hands in your opponents range should be made to pay to see another card.

He's almost certainly already made the mistake in calling a re-raise preflop. If you check and he checks behind there are still more blank cards than scare cards plus his calling range may open up if he reads your flop check as a sign of weakness. If he hits a miracle on the turn so be it the result is the same as getting it in on the flop.

Marq

That's not very relentless.
Since when have you been a fish at something other than Chinese Poker?

Daithio

RoundTower wrote:

I was almost certain I was behind to QQ or JJ. Really I was hoping he had KK. I called and he had TT and my hand stood up.

I don't think you should think "it's OK because I made him put in too much to play for set value". If you're behind you should still fold. Yes, your play is unexploitable if you always raise to 1/7 of your stack and push any flop with AA, but that doesn't mean its optimal.

Two things about what you said Dave:
a) do you really think I should push preflop? He only has 800 committed and surely he can get away from JJ/QQ/AK now.
b) do you think he should push preflop if he has KK? Similarly to a) I will rarely make a mistake here. I would normally call in his position with KK. Possibly I would push AK.

Maybe I'm not being enough of a tournament donkey here.

LMAO. Being the tournament donkey that I am I always try to get in as much with KK as possible pre flop, likewise with AA. Pushing probably isn't the best option considering the stack sizes, but I definitely prefer a stiffer rraise than to just 2k. Post flop I hate it, it's a very tough situation. You're beating very little here apart from TT, which he should never have rraised with, and of course AK. Most players don't rraise with AQ from my experience.

Daithio

Hectorjelly wrote:

i didnt realise how much is in the pot, I think with the pot so big checking would be a big mistake

If he has half a brain and hasn't hit a monster on this flop he'll check behind anticipating a rraise.

cardshark202

Marq wrote:

That's not very relentless.
Since when have you been a fish at something other than Chinese Poker?

lol

I probably lead but the more I think about it there may be some other strategy apart from being relentless.

fuzzbox

RoundTower wrote:

I was almost certain I was behind to QQ or JJ. Really I was hoping he had KK. I called and he had TT and my hand stood up.

I don't think you should think "it's OK because I made him put in too much to play for set value". If you're behind you should still fold. Yes, your play is unexploitable if you always raise to 1/7 of your stack and push any flop with AA, but that doesn't mean its optimal.

Two things about what you said Dave:
a) do you really think I should push preflop? He only has 800 committed and surely he can get away from JJ/QQ/AK now.
b) do you think he should push preflop if he has KK? Similarly to a) I will rarely make a mistake here. I would normally call in his position with KK. Possibly I would push AK.

Maybe I'm not being enough of a tournament donkey here.

I think you played the hand very well.

You have to call, because he can still have KK/TT/AQ more than QQ/JJ.
Also - he insta-pushed ...and didnt deliberate for an hour and a half and finally just smooth call .... prolly meaning you had the best hand .

Hectorjelly

Daithio wrote:

If he has half a brain and hasn't hit a monster on this flop he'll check behind anticipating a rraise.

I bet this guy would of pushed/bet with TT

fixer

Hectorjelly wrote:

I bet this guy would of pushed/bet with TT

I would have.

fixer

I had just gotten to the table. RT had a big stack and a smarmy look on his face, I immediately tagged him as the table bully. I called his reraise preflop with assuming that he's as likely to have AK as AA or KK. His flop bet didn't tell me anything more, so I took a stab and pushed the open-ender. I would have pushed a set with my stack size relative to the pot and that flop, with or without his bet.

Hector asks what us bad players think, but I'm not sure I can do an answer justice.

RoundTower

Lol - I thought it was you all right but I didn't want to mention any names in case either a) I had it wrong or b) you didn't want it put up here. Also I'd forgotten you were new to the table and hadn't seen the previous hand I played.

I don't think I can be four betting AK there, unless I push. But once you get to the flop like that sticking it all in is the only consistent play: you weren't playing for set value so you have to get it in on some flops that don't contain a T and this is as good as you could hope for. And you got me to seriously consider folding the winning hand.

fixer

I wonder if I would have taken more time to think if it would have made the decision tougher. I went with the plan that tried to say "no brainer, nothing to think about since I'm in the lead"

I can gurantee that I only make this sort of play once in each tourney.

robinlacey

fixer wrote:

I can gurantee that I only make this sort of play once in each tourney.

lol
i could be cruel here and suggest a reason why....

robinlacey

i've been thinking about it,i definitely push preflop..

now i don't really play many live tourneys,however,i make this play in the party 150 with aces and kings all the time and get called with all sorts of rubbish...the fact that he's reraised means he's probably committed to the pot already (mentally,not technically)

i don't know what the standard is like in this tourney,but i've heard its pretty bad,and given that fitz 1/2 pl cash players are significantly worse than online .25/.50c players (and i play cash games on tribeca so that's saying something) i'm assuming the standard is at least as bad as party 100 and 150 players,if not worse...

unless i know the person to be a good play i'm going to go all in straight away here-against an unknown i definitely do,and against someone i think might be inclined to overplay hands i like pushing even better...

as played,its a horrible situation,and i dont know what i'd do,but given the size of the pot i think i'd grit my teeth and bet most of the pot....
(and obviously call a push)

fixer

I wish he would have pushed, I could have folded and saved chips!

ntlbell

robinlacey wrote:

i don't know what the standard is like in this tourney,but i've heard its pretty bad,and given that fitz 1/2 pl cash players are significantly worse than online .25/.50c players

Yes it's terrible, it only attracts idiots, like Andy Black, Collete Doherty, Liam flood, Peter Roche, Bob Battersby,Alan Betson, Lesley McClean John O Callaghan you know the usuall fish!! :rolleyes:

You won't find a higher standard in any game in the country.

cardshark202

ntlbell wrote:

Yes it's terrible, it only attracts idiots, like Andy Black, Collete Doherty, Liam flood, Peter Roche, Bob Battersby,Alan Betson, Lesley McClean John O Callaghan you know the usuall fish!! :rolleyes:

You won't find a higher standard in any game in the country.

I don't think I've ever seen some of these people in the 270 game. I've never seen Peter Roche or Liam Flood or Alan Betson play this and one of these people is a known nutcase player. As for the high standard, I think it doesn't say much for my tournament game or the standard of poker in this country when this is the highest standard game in the country; because the standard is quite quite poor I think in general. And I've never even moneyed in it!

Marq

well Liam flood has only ever played one tourney in the fitz (wasn't the 270) and I don't recall Alan Betson ever having played it (but that's not to say he hasn't - i've seen him play the cash games infrequently). all the others play it regularly. but yes, the standard is quite poor - and this is a good thing

RoundTower

ntlbell wrote:

Yes it's terrible, it only attracts idiots, like Andy Black, Collete Doherty, Liam flood, Peter Roche, Bob Battersby,Alan Betson, Lesley McClean John O Callaghan you know the usuall fish!! :rolleyes:

You won't find a higher standard in any game in the country.

I can't tell how much of this post was serious.

sickpuppy

Bob BATTERSBY HIS FAMOUS QUOTE FROM THE WORLD SERIES LAST year the only difference between me and andy black was andy got lucky bob is a real quality player all right