Filipino Kali Flow Drills

Ballisong

It was said in a recent thread that certain Kali schools were teaching a "dead" art and a lot of people seem to think that Filipino drills are a "dead" way to train. In Sayoc Kali at the beginning the drill must be done slowly with a compliant partner so that both the feeder and receiver learn the correct body mechanics for each movement and start to build up sensitivity. Because knife fighting is done in very close quarters your vision is not always able to keep up with your opponents attacks, this is why being sensitive to you opponents attacks is so vital and why we do hundreds of reps with a compliant partner we learn to be sensitive to their movement and react accordingly. Another reason for doing so many reps in a "dead" way is to install the movements in to your muscle memory so it becomes a reflex and in combat, be it empty handed or with weapons it's your reflexes that your brain calls on to deal with the attacks. So your reflexive response needs to be the correct one for the attack.

This is a clip of how one of these drills is trained in the beginning while you are still installing it to your muscle memory http://sayoc.com/vidclips/tns01.wmv

The drill at this stage has lots of rules, which is why it's a drill. As you progress and become more efficient the rules are taken away gradually but even at the highest level of training their are always rules, although they are fewer in number (no hits to the groin, no eye gouging etc), which makes everything you do while training a drill, including sparring, unless it's all out and anything goes. The only thing that's not a drill is a real fight because it has no rules and no one trains like that as it is unsafe to do so.

Here is the same drill shown in the first clip trained at a higher level with less rules, the attacks are now fully committed and fed in any order and from any range http://youtube.com/watch?v=9IKtEyp79ig

All techniques should be trained slowly first so the student can learn the technique in a controlled way making sure he has the correct body mechanics, so when he comes to using it in an "alive" way be it with a pad man, in a sparring session or in a street fight he can do the technique correctly and efficiently.

This post is not a dig at any person or style it is merely here to try and explain, as best i can the purpose of two man flow drills in Kali and their progression in your training.

judomick

the 2nd video aint workin says its a locked video?

Ballisong

Sorry, try it now hopefully it should work :rolleyes:

Roper

Re: the second clip. How long would it take to get to that level of proficiency, and secondly, I take it that was a dead blade:O???

Ballisong

It would depend on how much time you invested into your training and how tough your training partners are, your both going to get banged up as your training progresses and the intensity level rises. But it's all conditioning .

Yes it was an aluminium training blade, at a public seminar there are no live blades allowed on the floor for obvious safety reasons.

judomick

Ballisong from what i saw in the 2nd clip both guys? were stabbed a number of times in the sparring, in reality would they not have both bled to death?

looks cool though:cool:

Ballisong

Judomick i never said nobody got cut actually only one of the guys got a lethal entry and by that i mean a wound where you will bleed out or a wound that incapacitates some part of the body like a brachial thrust, which is good considering the level of attack, the duration of the fight (no real knife fight would ever last that long) and the fact that the receiver was not allowed to attack, he could only defend. Anything else is superficial and won't stop you in combat.

If you are unfortunate to get into a bladed confrontation you are going to get cut, you have to learn to defend the targets that will kill you or lead to you being unable to fight, it's better to take a slash on the outside of your forearm than to take a thrust to the carotid, it's not ideal though , it's always better to run if you get the chance, but as two people in Galway found over the last couple of days running ain't always an option.

There are higher levels of that drill, where the feeder can use his live hand more, to punch or he can kick and likewise the receiver can do the same. It's still a drill because it has rules but it effective none the less, how many people do you know that can defend that well against any weapon, it comes from repetition of the drill with a compliant partner.

judomick

ok cool, so that 2nd video was just isolating the movement, when the guy was stabbed would the drill not then restart?

btw im just trying to learn about the training involved and the common goal/point of your training apart from being fun! not taking a shot

just on another point have you seen Karl Tanswells S.T.A.B program? if so what did you think?

Ballisong

Hey, it would depend on the target that was hit, some targets can bleed out in seconds i.e. femoral and carotid others may take longer. If you got thrust in the neck you would obviously stop, acknowledge the shot and restart, the guys in the clip do stop and restart a few times but thats because they got too entangled, and they were not demoing the grappling range at that point, that was actually shown later, they were trying to show where the seminar attendees progression in training should be taking them. When training any drill like that in free flow then any shots that would have an almost instant effect like a subclavian thrust would end the drill and you reset.

www.openmat.dk/video/csa/stab.wmv

I've seen a couple of these clips of the S.T.A.B. program, the position they end up in is basically an excellent position to start your offensive against the attacker that would be what we call phase 2. There is only a couple of things that i would address, how do they get to that position? If it's straight from a grab of the attackers wrist then i would view that as being to risky, if you look at Mr Tanswells right hand he is grabbing just above the wrist and the attacker still has mobility to move the knife, all it takes is a small thrust or cut to the arm to release the grip. If he were to drop his hand down to take control of the thumb then his assailant would not be able to move the blade at all, he could not even drop it if he wanted, making it easy for it to be used against him, in Sayoc Kali this is called a receiver grip, and is vital when grappling either standing up or on the ground when a blade is involved.

About 1:15 into the clip when Mr Tanswell is going at it with the guy who's padded up it looks like he gets thrust into his side and with a blade that size it will probably hit his kidney (a vital target as when you thrust into the kidney it causes the body cramp up paralyzing you while the blade is in it). If he were to post the blade to his hip using a receiver grip he would have greater control of the blade hand eliminating the cuts that can be sustained in the struggle. I'm not knocking this system, it's actually looks like one of the better ones out there, they are just to small changes I wold make. Does anyone know how they make their entry and what they do from that position.

Judomick i know your not taking a shot , I'm just trying to change a few misconceptions about weapons arts, especially Filipino martial arts. If anyone is interested we will be hosting Tuhon Tom Kier sometime in November so if they want to see how we train they are more than welcome to come along, and see me get repeatedly get stabbed with an aluminum trainer or just ask me or Dave here.

john kavanagh

Ballisong wrote:

Does anyone know how they make their entry and what they do from that position.

i want to point out i have very little experience with the STAB program....but probably more than anyone else on this board so i'll try and answer.

there is no entries. karl works off the very likely fact you've been stabbed already and you go from there. there is no beginning to the system. he finds the idea of standing in front of someone that has a knife and trying to block attacks unrealistic. i tend to agree - i've seen some footage of people getting stabbed in prison attacks and they go how i would've expected them to go - a frenzied attack.

i said in another thread that imo the vast majority of knife incidents will go 2 ways

1. you dont see it, your just stabbed - why would someone show you the knife if their intention was ot stab you, just doesn't make sense to me

2. it is for intimidation, they want your money.

"if you look at Mr Tanswells right hand he is grabbing just above the wrist and the attacker still has mobility to move the knife"

i've done the course i think 3 times and this point is always brought up. but as soon an karl takes up this position and starts blasting knees to the legs, headbutts i've never seen anyone able to move the knife in such a way to cut him....but it does seem a good idea what your saying about gripping lower nearer the thumb. i'll ask him if there's a reason for this when i see him.

Ballisong

Thanks for the reply John I agree about the two types of attacks, intimidation or a frenzied attack, I think for the later the best defense is to be aware of whats going on and to not get caught in that situation. Just over a year ago I had knife pulled on me unexpectedly and was forced to defend it which i did, not as well as I would have liked though , so it is possible to stand in front of knife and defend it, it's not easy or wise to do so however.

"I've done the course i think 3 times and this point is always brought up. but as soon an Karl takes up this position and starts blasting knees to the legs, head butts I've never seen anyone able to move the knife in such a way to cut him...."

I would just rather make sure, because in the clip it looks like it comes very close, any info you could get would be greatly appreciated, always looking to expand my knowledge.

Seraph

Hi iv seen some of the clips of Sayoc Kali and also took a look at the clip of karl Tanswells, was just wonderin would there not need to be changes made to the both if the attacker had a second, third or god forbid fourth knife? while most (not all but most) systems base knife "defense" around the attacker only having 1 blade, would it not be good to "mix it up a little" and give him/her spare knife in pocket or ankle?
i saw the film THe Hunted (i understand cohreagraphed by Sayoc Kali) and one ting which Blew me away was when they're fighting near the end and Del Torres just drops blade from hand (being held) to his free hand!!

ne1 seen it....worth a watch...not oscar material but fight scenes are SCHWEET

Ballisong

Hey Seraph, Tuhon Tom Kier and Tuhon Rafael Kayanan were responsible for the fight choreography in the Hunted as well as being involved in confessions of a dangerous minds. Tuhon Rafael also drew the story boards for the Hunted which Can be seen here http://www.sayoccombatchoreography.com/board01.html

Sayoc Kali trains it's students in the use of multiple blades for both feeder and the receiver all drills can be done with a blade in both hands.

Scramble

Very nice artwork on those story boards!

Ballisong

Yeah it's pretty cool, Tuhon Raf has done work on the Spider-Man, Batman and Conan comics also computer games like Turok.