Omaha 8 - Little chance of scooping

ianmc38

Recently i've been wondering how to play hands that have a good chance of winning half the pot and little or no chance of scooping.

For example getting dealt A29J rainbow on the button. Pot is unraised. 4 limpers. Should I muck?

Similarly, should I be playing hands that have little or no chance of taking the low? Eg KKQJ?

Advice would be appreciated, as I've started playing alot more O8 online now.

As an aside is there any casinos in Dublin that play O8 cash games?

fuzzbox

Both are worth a limp in LP.
I would muck both in EP.

You can hit nice flops like J83/T83 etc with the first hand, and in the 2nd, you can win a lot if you hit a set/str8 and some moron pays full pot on two streets to draw to a low (or a backdoor low !!!!).

5starpool

ianmc38 wrote:

As an aside is there any casinos in Dublin that play O8 cash games?

None that I have seen. Def not in the Fitz anyhow.

I won't even pretend to give advice on hi-lo as I only play hi.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Both are worth a limp in LP.
I would muck both in EP.

You can hit nice flops like J83/T83 etc with the first hand, and in the 2nd, you can win a lot if you hit a set/str8 and some moron pays full pot on two streets to draw to a low (or a backdoor low !!!!).

So play hands that only have a high or a low (little chance of both) for cheap in LP and muck otherwise?

5starpool

ianmc38 wrote:

So play hands that only have a high or a low (little chance of both) for cheap in LP and muck otherwise?

How's about AAKQ double suited UTG?

To break my own rule of not commenting on Omaha-8 here is a comment.

I don't know the stats, but surely it is only approx 50% (probably less, but lets assume 50%) of the time that there is a low hand. This means that on average with this type of hand you will be getting 75% chance of being able to play for the whole pot (if you see what i mean)? Surely worth a punt in any position to see the texture of the flop?

I would play this hand from any position is O8 but then again, what do I know?

fuzzbox

You are never really dead for the High in the first one, it depends on the flop (Duh).

And you can win a big hi-only pot with the 2nd one. (there aint always a lo possible).

Plus villains are so atrocious, that A2xx must be +EV for a limp, as will KKQJ be.

With regard to AAKQds utg ... in this spot you have TWO Aces. This means that your opponents do not have said Aces, so they *should* be more scared of not having the nut lo.
In practice, villains are apalling, so thinking like this wont help. Limp that hand in though, because you can hit lots of nice flops. If some1 raises, I *might* reraise to isolate, and then decide what to do based on the flop.

fixer

For anyone not too familiar, here's a good primer: http://www.lowlimitomaha.com/starting_hands.htm

ianmc38

Well the problem I find with limping with A2 hands are that i'll often be looking at splitting the low and losing the high. For example to use the A2J9 rainbow hand. Say we have a flop of 347 rainbow. I think great, nut low. However, i'll often be dominated by holdings such as A277 or A256. I'll then find that I'm donating chips to the high pot when i'm drawing dead in it

ianmc38

fixer wrote:

For anyone not too familiar, here's a good primer: http://www.lowlimitomaha.com/starting_hands.htm

I cant agree with some of that advice. For example 9TJQ rainbow, can be a horrible hand to get involved with.

Say we have a flop of JT2 with a flush draw. We have feck all redraws here and will often find ourselves dominated by a big wrap such as TJQK or JJQK ds etc. Now our pretty looking two pair is suddenly far less appealing.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Well the problem I find with limping with A2 hands are that i'll often be looking at splitting the low and losing the high. For example to use the A2J9 rainbow hand. Say we have a flop of 347 rainbow. I think great, nut low. However, i'll often be dominated by holdings such as A277 or A256. I'll then find that I'm donating chips to the high pot when i'm drawing dead in it

You dont have to call pot bets on flop turn and river with just the nut lo.
This is rather key to the whole thing in any case.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

You dont have to call pot bets on flop turn and river with just the nut lo.

Then why am I calling in the 1st place? IF I call preflop with this hand I'm either hoping that Jesus himself deals me a miracle high, or that I flop the nut low or a draw to the nut low.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Then why am I calling in the 1st place? IF I call preflop with this hand I'm either hoping that Jesus himself deals me a miracle high, or that I flop the nut low or a draw to the nut low.

1. Its cheap
2. you might find yourself with the nut lo Vs 3 players all calling bets ... this is good as you make a profit even if you only win half pot
3. you might hit a good combo hand
4. you have position
5. your opponents are terrible and dont always have the A2JJ hand on a J83 board ... sometimes they have 249T and you are a wonderful favourite.

loosecannon

ian i think that you are getting a little too concerned with your pre-flop play, in omaha 8 i find that the majority of your profit/loss comes from your actions post-flop, there are a lot of people online who really have no understanding of the game as there is a lot more to it than NL hold'em, and as i am playing the NL format of the game online (omaha H/L that is) i find that you can exploit these weaknesses even more in the NL format compared to the PL format, i would recommend playing this NL format if you are feeling good about your play in the game

also with the key of having position with these hands they are both must calls although i will happily lay down a blank A2 nuts low with no high draws under many circumstances post flop

loosecannon

ianmc38 wrote:

Similarly, should I be playing hands that have little or no chance of taking the low? Eg KKQJ?

always always call pre-flop, even if there's a raiser and lots of callers pre-flop, only gonna cost you a small sized bet to try and hit 3 high cards on the flop or your set etc

even though there is no chance of taking the low, as the low is only coming out roughly 66% of the time a hand like KKQJ is always a must call pre-flop for me within reason of course (ie not an all in re-raise)

cardshark202

loosecannon wrote:

i would recommend playing this NL format

You are sick. I play that NL H/L when I'm tilted.

Bandana boy

I beg to differ
Pre flop play in O8 is hugely important
You should at the end of the day be playing less hands in O8 than you would in O HI
You need to read your opponents play and be very mindful of position
I very rarely limp into a O8 hand even with draws as above
if i want to play then i am coming in for a raise to narrow the field identifying who is likely to call and if they are likely to chase hands.
in doing that against the many people who dont understand O8 both hands can be very profitable.
Also it is no harm if you are sure of your high or your lo to split with a fish
it encourages him to draw to half a pot when you are serious about a hand.

Good point from Fuzz that you do not have to call pot bets with 1 half of the nuts if flop/pot/player is unfavourable it is more than respectable to die with the nut lo

RoundTower

Are we all talking about pot limit?

I think you have to limp both of those hands on the button. The first one just hope for a good high. The second one is almost as good as it would be in Omaha high; if you hit your hand good and hard there will be no low possible so you will win the whole pot. It is less likely to win the whole pot u****roved though so you limp instead of raising.

Always coming in for a raise like bandanna boy says isn't a good idea IMO. It might work in hold'em but in Omaha often you will want to have more players in the pot.

Do what fuzz says and start folding the nut low with no high chances heads up more often. Otherwise you really are right to fold your A29J and the like.

Marq

I've played an awful lot of Omaha 8 limit. I have to go out now but I'll post some stuff in this thread tomorrow.

Ste05

In split pot games Pre-Flop IS important. However in general Post flop is where the majority (more so than in our usual games) of the play in any hand takes place.

In the first hand here, this is the kind of hand that you want to play small pots with. It's not one that you can go to war with in a big pot. (Unless you get a particularly favourable flop) And so play it as such, limp or fold, either is fine IMO.

In relation to the other hands such as KKQJ or AAKQss, these are hands that should be played aggressively IMO.

If you (very) roughly divide the types of flops into 3. (1) A flopped qualifying low hand, e.g. 438; (2) A draw to a qualifying low hand, e.g. K83; (3) No low hand possible e.g. 9JA.

I can't remember the % of time there'll be a flopped low possible or the % where there'll be No Low possible.

So I would raise these hands a higher % of the time than alot of other players here by the sounds of it (I'd also be raising with hands with solid scooping possibilities, mixing my game and building pots early). I then evaluate on the flop:
If the flop comes down as in (1) above you're not getting too busy, and are only playing for 1/2 the pot usually, so I'd pretty much shut down here.
If the flop comes down as in (2) above it's usually improved my hand and I'll continue to charge the Low chasers a premium and hopefully value betting into the second best hi hand at the same time, meaning that even if the low hits on the turn or river, I hope to extract further value from the second best hi hand.
If the flop comes down as in (3) above I'll usually have a monster and can hopefully extract value from second best hands.

Obviously this is all very basic and there's a million other things to consider, and I'm sure I haven't explained it in any real coherent way, but I think basically I raise here to:
(a) build a potentially monster pot early,
(b) this potential monster pot will be one in which I should know pretty much where I stand at all times in the hand,
(c) charge hands with Low potential a premium to enter the pot. If the flop comes down in my favour and noone has anything to pay me off with, at least I got a small bit of value Pre-Flop.

Just my 0.02c.

ianmc38

Marq wrote:

I've played an awful lot of Omaha 8 limit. I have to go out now but I'll post some stuff in this thread tomorrow.

Excellent!