TPTK fold the river

fuzzbox

How is this ?

PP 6-max 3/6
Villain has 2k, I have 600
Dont know villain.

Preflop
Villain opens for 22 utg+1, I call next to act with AQo, everybody else folds

Flop (45)
Q58r
Villain bets 45, I call

Turn (135)
7r
villain bets 95, I call

River (325)
6r
Villain bets 300, I think and fold.

Yuck. Do I suck?

Lafortezza

Raise the flop?
You let his AK/JJ/TT/AQ/whatever take it pretty easily, no resistance at all.

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

Raise the flop?
You let his AK/JJ/TT/AQ/whatever take it pretty easily, no resistance at all.

Why do you want me to raise the flop?
By the river - what do you think that he thinks that I have?

Lafortezza

I'm thinking of an alternative way to play it. If you are calling the turn bet are you planning on calling the river if an A or Q doesn't come?

What do you put him on after he bets both flop and turn? The 6 on the river doesn't make a massive difference, it's pretty much a blank if he has reasonable preflop raising standards from UTG+1.

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

I'm thinking of an alternative way to play it. If you are calling the turn bet are you planning on calling the river if an A or Q doesn't come?

What do you put him on after he bets both flop and turn? The 6 on the river doesn't make a massive difference, it's pretty much a blank if he has reasonable preflop raising standards from UTG+1.

Ok - so you didnt answer my "why" question .
Why raise the flop? For what reason? I dont see one.

Lafortezza

Because you might win the pot there and then, if he calls he might check the turn giving you a free card if you want it, if he comes over the top of your flop raise it's probably an easy fold. I haven't played nl cash games on the internet since 1972 but calling down every street with top pair top kicker is a bit meh

The Overlay wrote:

If you are calling the turn bet are you planning on calling the river if an A or Q doesn't come?

What do you put him on after he bets both flop and turn?

Your turn!

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

Because you might win the pot there and then, if he calls he might check the turn giving you a free card if you want it, if he comes over the top of your flop raise it's probably an easy fold. I haven't played nl cash games on the internet since 1972 but calling down every street with top pair top kicker is a bit meh
Your turn!

Oh ye.

Raising the flop makes him fold worse hands (like KQ/QJ/99/TT/JJ) that dont have many outs against me, and play better hands like AA/KK/QQ/sets that I dont have many outs against.

Im not bluffing, so I dont need to win the pot right now. I have a strong(ish)hand, in position. I also have a fairly small pot, which is good. The board is not very drawtastic, so no need to protect my hand against said draws.

And I didnt call down 3 streets with TPTK ... I folded the river .

Over to you.

Lafortezza

If you are calling the turn bet are you planning on calling the river if an A or Q doesn't come? If the river is a blank (like the six) why wouldn't you call the river bet like you called the turn bet. Is it the bet size or the fact that Villain seemed unafraid to pull the trigger on every street?

What do you put him on after he bets both flop and turn?

ianmc38

Why call the turn if you intend to fold the river when a blank hits?

marius

What do you put him on?

EDIT 'What do you put him on after he bets both flop and turn?' got there before me

FastMachine

I think it was a good fold on the river. I don't see 1010 or JJ going all in there unless the villain is an idiot. If he's an unknown I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, even more so with his stack size.
Looks like AA or KK to me with the EP raise. It could be 99 for the straight or a set if he likes to raise pp's. The only thing you're beating that bets the pot on the river like this is a missed AK and that would be an extremely risky bet as your holding is very obvious at this stage. It could be AQ for a tie but I think in the long run you're loosing money calling here.

lafortezza wrote:

If the river is a blank (like the six) why wouldn't you call the river bet like you called the turn bet. Is it the bet size or the fact that Villain seemed unafraid to pull the trigger on every street?

Without reraising him at some stage, the only thing fuzzbox can go on to judge his hand is the villains betting pattern. Just because the river was a blank and the villain is un-improved from the the turn doesn't mean you autocall the river. More than likely the villain didn't need to improve. This is exactly how I'd play AA or KK after been called twice on a Q high board.

Fuzzbox minimized the damage and maximized the potential profit (if the villain had a worse hand) on this hand by not reraising on any street and making his judgements based on the betting pattern.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Why call the turn if you intend to fold the river when a blank hits?

Is it a blank?

The board now reads Q8756.

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

If you are calling the turn bet are you planning on calling the river if an A or Q doesn't come? If the river is a blank (like the six) why wouldn't you call the river bet like you called the turn bet. Is it the bet size or the fact that Villain seemed unafraid to pull the trigger on every street?

What do you put him on after he bets both flop and turn?

I might call if the 5 pairs or a 2 comes off (for example).

The 6 is not a total blank though - as 66 and 99 could both play this way (albeit quite aggressively).

Anybody like a turn minraise?

Jaden

Attention:

The train is now pulling into Calling Station. Please disembark if you would fold this river.

ianmc38

So you're afraid of 44-99.
A9/A4 - Would he raise with these? I assume not.
9Ts - This would be a bit loose to open raise from UTG+1.

By calling on the flop and the turn you are obviously unconcerned about QQ/KK/AA

So what do you put him on that you're folding here. Also can this villain fire bets on all 3 streets with a hand like AK when he misses?

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Anybody like a turn minraise?

No :mad:

fixer

AA/KK for villian here. Possible JJ/TT that thought he was up against AK (with no raise on his flop feeler bet).

Turn call seems weird, drawing to 2 Q's, and maybe 3 Aces.

FastMachine

fixer wrote:

AA/KK for villian here. Possible JJ/TT that thought he was up against AK (with no raise on his flop feeler bet).

Turn call seems weird, drawing to 2 Q's, and maybe 3 Aces.

If he had JJ/TT and he thought fuzz had AK why would he bet the river instead of check calling a bluff? I'd expect JJ/TT to check call here or bet 1/2 pot maximum for a showdown.
A turn min raise wouldn't be a bad play but I think you got away with the minimum damage as it was.

jbravado

Why even call his ep raise with AQ if you have no interest in playing Qhigh flop? What kind of flop are you hoping for?

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

So you're afraid of 44-99.
A9/A4 - Would he raise with these? I assume not.
9Ts - This would be a bit loose to open raise from UTG+1.

By calling on the flop and the turn you are obviously unconcerned about QQ/KK/AA

So what do you put him on that you're folding here. Also can this villain fire bets on all 3 streets with a hand like AK when he misses?

I would open with 44-99 in that spot, I might even open with A9s. 9Ts would also be in my opening range.

Im afraid of pretty much all the mid pairs, and overpairs.

More to the point - what do I beat that bets this way .... ?

fuzzbox

jbravado wrote:

Why even call his ep raise with AQ if you have no interest in playing Qhigh flop? What kind of flop are you hoping for?

I have an interest in playing a Q-high flop ... I did play a Q-high flop.

What are you suggesting that I do differently?

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I would open with 44-99 in that spot, I might even open with A9s. 9Ts would also be in my opening range.

Yes, 44-99 are all possible. I'm not sure if 44-99 would fire bets on the flop and turn though.

Similarly I doubt if A9 would bet on two streets. 9Ts is possible as it could be a continuation bet followed by a bet when he picks up the draw.

How often would you open from UTG+1 would those two holdings. I may do it 10% of the time? Is that too little?

fuzzbox wrote:

Im afraid of pretty much all the mid pairs

Me too

fuzzbox wrote:

and overpairs.

I'm not so worried about these anymore.

fuzzbox wrote:

More to the point - what do I beat that bets this way .... ?

Very little. AK is about it i'd say and i've seen that betting pattern with lots of AKs.

I'm still confused as to why you called the turn. If he has a set you're drawing dead. QQ/AA you're drawing dead. KK you're drawing very thin.

What was your plan for the river?

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Yes, 44-99 are all possible. I'm not sure if 44-99 would fire bets on the flop and turn though.

99 might, 44 prolly wont. 66 might, 88/77/55 certainly do.

Similarly I doubt if A9 would bet on two streets. 9Ts is possible as it could be a continuation bet followed by a bet when he picks up the draw.

Agreed A9 is unlikely, 9Ts is possible, not extremely likely, but possible.

How often would you open from UTG+1 would those two holdings. I may do it 10% of the time? Is that too little?

Depends on the game. Vs calling stations, dont bother, Vs tighties then it can be fine to do it a good bit.

Me too



I'm not so worried about these anymore.

I think he should do this with AA/KK/QQ here a lot.

Very little. AK is about it i'd say and i've seen that betting pattern with lots of AKs.

Right - so its either a total bluff or a hand that beats us. And we really dont beat anything. ... maybe I dont suck.

I'm still confused as to why you called the turn. If he has a set you're drawing dead. QQ/AA you're drawing dead. KK you're drawing very thin.

I can call the flop there with a lot more than TP, so his turn bet could be just "firing another barrell", or it could be betting his TP again (KQ or QJ). Or he could be hitting it again with TT/JJ.
Thus it could be a bluff (aka a hand worse than mine that might/might not believe he is bluffing).
I might have the best hand, so why not call?

I am starting to consider minraising here a lot, as I might get a free showdown if I minraise, or he pushes with a better hand here, and I dont really figure to make much from a worse hand at the river. Its expensive tho .... hmmmm....

What was your plan for the river?

I would evaluate based on his bet/the card.

aidankk

fuzzbox wrote:

I have an interest in playing a Q-high flop ... I did play a Q-high flop.

What are you suggesting that I do differently?

id say a raise on the flop is a must to find out where your are.

Looks to me like 99 aa or kk are the most likely hands but could be anything, he may have felt he could take you of the pot at the end with any scare card because of the calling, you didnt show enough strength to call a big river bet by him, GOOD play on his part id say..

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I would evaluate based on his bet/the card.

Touché

I'm coming round to the idea of a raise on the turn. Small set may check the river. Something like KQ will certainly check the river.

Him calling a min-raise followed by a small value bet on the river could be costly though as you'll be priced in to calling.

Hmmm.

ianmc38

aidankk wrote:

id say a raise on the flop is a must to find out where your are.

Oh oh spaghettios

Hectorjelly

Fold preflop

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

Fold preflop

grumble grumble grumble

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

grumble grumble grumble

I like the fold on the river!

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

I like the fold on the river!

And the rest?

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

And the rest?

Preflop I think is bad, unless villain is bad or you plan on trying to take him off his hand then its almost certainly -EV. He has the initive and your hand isnt that strong. Reraising would be much better. Folding best!

Flop is fine, raising here is terrible
Turn I might consider raising as there are a lot of cards that put a 1 card st8 out there. If Im called im not putting another penny in the pot. Id probably just call though.
River you only beat a bluff, and 4 barrel bluffs are uncommon.

MrPillowTalk

Agree with HJ that calling preflop is a bit poor, I am reraising or folding based on my read of opponent, reraising is dangerous as you are commiting to playing a big pot should villain call.

Dont agree that raising the flop is bad, you get to find out where you are for a lot less chips than raising the turn bet, I know raising the flop is only going to chase off worse hands but it more or less eliminates any chance of you getting stacked here and removes the danger of being bluffed off the hand. If you flat call the flop then I think you must fold or raise the turn, calling there is never a good move in my book.

The fold on the river is your only course of action, I know some people think you must call having called all the way but there is no hand betting here that you can beat bar a stone cold bluff and if he shows you one say nh and take a note.

fuzzbox

Both you guys fold AQ to a single raise with position on the raiser?

Surely AQ is strong enough to call a raise here ... no ... regardless of position?

Add position to the account and we have a good spot ... do we not?

MrPillowTalk

fuzzbox wrote:

Both you guys fold AQ to a single raise with position on the raiser?

Surely AQ is strong enough to call a raise here ... no ... regardless of position?

Add position to the account and we have a good spot ... do we not?

I dont think AQ is a calling hand like I said depending on my read I am either folding or reraising, you just never know where your at.

The Ace Face

fuzzbox wrote:

How is this ?

PP 6-max 3/6
Villain has 2k, I have 600
Dont know villain.

Preflop
Villain opens for 22 utg+1, I call next to act with AQo, everybody else folds

Flop (45)
Q58r
Villain bets 45, I call

I don't call, I have TPTK, I reraise 60-90 to find out where I am
Putting him on a pp or AK/AQ - calling leaks chips if he is winning ( 5 cards left in deck 20% chance of hitting, I'd try and get him off hand now ) and allows him to scare you off the river with a big bet.
If he comes over top at flop I fold and if he calls I am more worried!
Not knowing punter I would guess your probably ahead, however, calling original raise leaves you guessing too much. If in doubt fold!

Thats me....

jbravado

Why is betting the flop so bad in this spot? Aq has now become a very strong holding tptk no? I take it this is due to a geniune fear of aa kk qq and not an attempt to trap the villian?Surely a bet on the flop gives us a firmer idea of where we are in the hand?or is this just my inexperience talking.....

fuzzbox

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I dont think AQ is a calling hand like I said depending on my read I am either folding or reraising, you just never know where your at.

Reraising is ok too - I considered it, but decided that I call this time.

Why not call?
What you call with then?

PS - Im genuinely asking this. I too dont favour AQ much, but I'm trying to expand my range for calling raises, because I think its too light.

fuzzbox

The Ace Face wrote:

I don't call, I have TPTK, I reraise 60-90 to find out where I am
Putting him on a pp or AK/AQ - calling leaks chips if he is winning ( 5 cards left in deck 20% chance of hitting, I'd try and get him off hand now ) and allows him to scare you off the river with a big bet.
If he comes over top at flop I fold and if he calls I am more worried!
Not knowing punter I would guess your probably ahead, however, calling original raise leaves you guessing too much. If in doubt fold!

Thats me....

When you raise - then what hands call your raise that you beat?
How is calling leaking chips? How do you believe that he has 5 cards in the deck to hit? If he has AK - only 3 Ks are available, if he has JJ then he has 2 Js, if he has KQ then only 3 Ks are available for him to improve. etc etc.

Why do you want him to fold a worse hand? I want him to continue to put money in with a worse hand.

If I raise - and he only calls with better hands than mine, then my TP has zero value, and I am effectively bluffing.

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

Both you guys fold AQ to a single raise with position on the raiser?

Usually, unless the raiser is a very bad player or is raising liberally (in which case I prefer a reraise).

fuzzbox wrote:

Surely AQ is strong enough to call a raise here ... no ... regardless of position?

I dont think so, its hard to hit the flop with AQ and get a lot of action from a hand you beat, plus the pfr has the initive. You will fold the best hand a lot, against a good/avg player im only calling preflop with the intention of taking it off them on a lot of flops

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

Reraising is ok too - I considered it, but decided that I call this time.

Why not call?
What you call with then?

PS - Im genuinely asking this. I too dont favour AQ much, but I'm trying to expand my range for calling raises, because I think its too light.

I think calling raises is unprofitable in general so the less I do it the better. For 75/100bbs stacks offsuit broadway cards are probably the worst to call with, id prefer mid pocket pairs (88-JJ), suited connectors or AK. With bigger stacks id be much more liberal. Obiously the worse the player the wider your range should probably be.

MrPillowTalk

fuzzbox wrote:

Reraising is ok too - I considered it, but decided that I call this time.

Why not call?
What you call with then?

PS - Im genuinely asking this. I too dont favour AQ much, but I'm trying to expand my range for calling raises, because I think its too light.

If I were to flat call there I would rather be holding any pp or suited connectors, I call if I think someone has a hand and I want to catch a flop and stack someone, set mining and playing suited connectors are best for this as I either hit the flop hard or get away from it without putting in another penny my hand is also far more deceptive. Saying that I dont like to flat call an ep raise as I have no idea what Im up against I prefer to raise or fold.

The Ace Face

fuzzbox wrote:

When you raise - then what hands call your raise that you beat?
How is calling leaking chips? How do you believe that he has 5 cards in the deck to hit? If he has AK - only 3 Ks are available, if he has JJ then he has 2 Js, if he has KQ then only 3 Ks are available for him to improve. etc etc.

Why do you want him to fold a worse hand? I want him to continue to put money in with a worse hand.

If I raise - and he only calls with better hands than mine, then my TP has zero value, and I am effectively bluffing.

You have 5 cards...not him....