How Bad was my play here?

DocO

Playing a pot limit cash game. ive got about 90€ infront of me - dealt KQ off in the BB, 7 limpers.
First question, should i raise here? this table isnt tight, and i know ill get atleast 4 callers, so im out of position facing four other players if i do this, also im relatively low stacked.
i dont raise, jus check.

Flop comes down Q high, with two diamonds. What is my action now, Bet the pot? which is only 16€ r so, anyone on a flush draw has to call for that or middle pair maybe even bottom (loss players), or i could check and wait for someone else to bet and then re-raise?

This is what i attempt, but it is checked around :mad:

Turn is a diamond, so 3 on the board, ive no diamonds in my hand. Now i bet out, and get 4 callers.
Should i have checd folded here, and jus let it go?
I dont know were i stand now, and am thinkin that perhaps someone had second top pair on flop and stays in, and im hoping that the other two hold a single diamond, or weaker Q (which is unlikely)

Before the river im just hoping for no diamond, and i get my wish, black 7, so no str8 on, and now i push all in for my last 65 r so. get one reluctanct caller, who is a solid enuf player, prob best at the table, so as soon as he calls i know im dead in the water.
what else could i/ should i have done? check fold? check call? i dont like check call here as id rather be the agressor and perhaps push dem off there hands.
In hind sight he had 8d2d , which was y he was so tentative with his betting. Had i raised pre flop i would have pushed him out, had i raised on flop he would have called, in hindsight i should have raise, but considering stack size and position i dont think so! (contradiction i know!)
Im confused on how bad i actually played this hand, so any contributions appreciated.

fuzzbox

Checking preflop is fine.
Checking the flop is fine, check/raising is v.dangerous
Check.fold the turn, you dont beat much, and you wont win much money in this spot.

Pushing the river is a total disaster.

RoundTower

Bet the flop. If you're not going to bet the flop don't put any more money in.

handsfree

doco your a donkey and now give me back my poker set;)

Hectorjelly

Anyone with a flush draw is making a mistake by calling a pot bet on the flop if you arent going to pay them off. Similarly with 2nd or 3rd pair. If you bet out and get a few callers you can happily check fold the turn.

As played the river push is insane, you are so overplaying your hand here you are actually bluffing.

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

Anyone with a flush draw is making a mistake by calling a pot bet on the flop if you arent going to pay them off.

I disagree with this. If you expect like Doco does that people with 2nd pair or bottom pair are going to tag along behind you, you can call with a flush draw even if you don't expect to have implied odds.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

I disagree with this. If you expect like Doco does that people with 2nd pair or bottom pair are going to tag along behind you, you can call with a flush draw even if you don't expect to have implied odds.

Well if you're sure that you wont be the only caller then its ok, but i still prefer a fold if noone else had called yet, especially with a low one.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

Anyone with a flush draw is making a mistake by calling a pot bet on the flop if you arent going to pay them off. Similarly with 2nd or 3rd pair. If you bet out and get a few callers you can happily check fold the turn.

As played the river push is insane, you are so overplaying your hand here you are actually bluffing.

The constitution of the flop is important here. We are oop with a weakish hand Vs a big field. We have no idea what anybody has, and we are likely to fold to a raise.
I hate potting this flop into such a large field, as I dont figure to win much money doing so.

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

The constitution of the flop is important here. We are oop with a weakish hand Vs a big field. We have no idea what anybody has, and we are likely to fold to a raise.
I hate potting this flop into such a large field, as I dont figure to win much money doing so.

You realise he has top pair great kicker dont you! With 40bbs in lot of games against loose players this is the nuts, and I dont automatically fold to a raise.

RoundTower

In the OP he said he expected to be called by any pair. Which isn't unrealistic in some of these games. Then it is OK for him to go broke with this hand here, he should just try to find a way to do it that doesn't involve him giving a free card to a flush draw and paying off a tight player on the river.

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

The constitution of the flop is important here. We are oop with a weakish hand Vs a big field. We have no idea what anybody has, and we are likely to fold to a raise.
I hate potting this flop into such a large field, as I dont figure to win much money doing so.

Which hand would you prefer to have here, AA or KQ? Disregard how you got into this situation with AA. Would you lead out with AA here?

fuzzbox

RoundTower wrote:

Which hand would you prefer to have here, AA or KQ? Disregard how you got into this situation with AA. Would you lead out with AA here?

Ok - lets say that I popped it from the blinds and got 4 callers. Now its worse, but check/raise all-in seems good .

But - this is unraised. And we have loosies. Implicit collusion means that I tend to lose more than I win here. I like to check here, see what happens, and then react accordingly when the action gets back to me. If the guy to my left bets, and gets a couple of callers, then I prolly check/raise (even though I hate the spot). If there is little action, then I can bet out on a safe turn card. Players tend to play more "honestly" on a turn.

This is all probably more useful in a highly aggro game, than a loose passive game. Perhaps I'm over analysing.

DocO

RoundTower wrote:

Then it is OK for him to go broke with this hand here, he should just try to find a way to do it that doesn't involve him giving a free card to a flush draw and paying off a tight player on the river.

Ideally i dont want to go broke in the hand, esp after i let everyone else catch up. my main problem was " trying to find a way to do it that doesnt involve giving the free card"

Unless ive a larger stack, i dont raise pre flop because of position, and even with a larger stack it shouldnt change how i play the hand - knowing the table i would only have lost a few players by raising.

Hector, pushing on the river is suicidal knowing that he had the flush, but as a i said i thought he was the betr player at the table, and if he had made his flush on the turn, esp a small one, i expected him to pot my riase to get rid of those carrying one high diamond. so i didnt think that due to the action on the turn that anyone had made their flush (unless it was the nuts which they were slow playin, which i doubt any of them could have done)

To call a pot size bet knowing u wont get paid if hit IS bad play, but these guys would chase until kingdom come if cheap enuf, i think if i had been succesful in check raising i would have taken the pot down (only because the guy on the draw from flop wasnt mad on his low draw (8 high) )

I know this hand looked like i did everything wrong in it, by lettin limpers in, then by checkin flop and now by beting out when he'd made his hand, but it was more circumstantial than anything else.

so is it agreed that i jus check fold d river?

Thanks for advise

fuzzbox

Check fold the TURN.
Then your troubles are over.

DocO

Hectorjelly wrote:

You realise he has top pair great kicker dont you! With 40bbs in lot of games against loose players this is the nuts, and I dont automatically fold to a raise.

I happilly call and re-raise on the flop. i feel that at that time i am def ahead ( unless someone has a lucky two pair) because nearly all other holdings that beat me AQ and trips (pkts) would have been raised pre flop.

The main reason im confident of a bet is the player in l8 position had re- raised to 40 a few hands previously with K 10 off, and i hoped he'd have a stab at it when i check flop, and actually give me a chance to take it down then (because its pot limit)

RoundTower

DocO wrote:

Ideally i dont want to go broke in the hand, esp after i let everyone else catch up. my main problem was " trying to find a way to do it that doesnt involve giving the free card"

Just fold preflop if you really don't want to go broke with 40BB on a loose table.

Check raising the flop is OK on this table, but there is never a guarantee someone else will bet. Just bet, and stop worrying about what happens if you bet and you get two callers with 5 outs each.