Interesting hand from Galway / 100 fo - What do you do?

Fatboydim

For some reason I always seem to lack results at the regular Pokerevents tourneys. I prefer freezeouts so I'm really happy that the weekly event is now a €100FO but the first one last week saw me busted out before the end of the second level... [in fact it might have been one minute into the second level... But we'll gloss over the details.] So this week I was determined to play better and last longer. One way of doing this was to stay in the bar and watch the Chelsea Newcastle match... But there was a telly in the card room and so I opted to start at the alloted time. Fast forward to the last 17 out of 76 entrants. Blinds are 1.5k 3k with a running ante of 200 so each steal nets just over 5k. For the last two levels I haven't played a hand... I've been playing tight and even folded AQ to Fintan when he reraised my EP raise. [Foolish I know but at that stage I made it 1.5x the BB and Fintan raised me 3x] So down to about 16k I find AQ in EP again and decide to push all in. No callers... Now up to 21k. next hand I'm UTG and I find A9 suited. I decide to make the minimum raise and get one caller. Flop comes 9 high so I go all in. Player folds. So I'm now on the BB with around 37k a healthy medium sized stack at this stage and enough to sneak into eight for the prize money. But I'm not interested in sneaking in... I want to vie for top three places at least. It's folded around to Manus in mid position who goes all in for 3.7k... and then folded around to Stephen mcClean on the SB. Now Stephen and Fintan have been at it like knives battling with each other for the chip lead with some amazing poker. At one stage a hand took around ten minutes to complete as bluff and counter bluff took down a massive pot. [the board was king high three spades and Fintan was representing the nut flush... or at least a flush. After a very long dwell up and the clock being called Stephen asked to be counted down... as the countdown reached three Stephen called All In. A master stroke to which Fintan folded - But dangerous as it was only another 8k to fintan and the pot was at least 50k] - So back to the hand in question - Manus all in for 3.7k only another 700 to me to call so I'm in no matter what I have unless small blind - Stephen - raises. And Stephen does raise... After checking with Donal that he can... He goes all in. I look down and I see I have A 10. Stephen has me covered of course... Manus's all in becomes irrelevant.... What's my next move? What would you do?

The C Kid

This is a fold for me.

Even if he's raising weakly to isolate, A10 is not a hand I want to call off my tournament life with in this situation.

ianmc38

I would hmm and haw then say no thank you very much and pass.

BigDragon

The question here for me is am I calling against carfax or playing my hand. AT is weak here but knowing carfax his range is huge. Fold I think. However, you cant let him make these plays too often and need to play your own agg game before he gets to act to reign him back in a bit.

fuzzbox

I think AT is ahead of his range.

I might call.

He could make this play with any two cards.

ianmc38

The problem is he may be trying to represent a steal with a monster. Then it's oh oh spaghettios

connie147

Youve ace -10.what do you put him on? even if hes isolating with k-q your going to a coin flip with a slight edge.If he's doing it with a pocket pair(small which is my guess) your going to a coin flip where he has the edge.If he has ace-rag your big favourite but thats a big if. Your stack seems plenty big enough to play.I wouldnt call here unless im on 6BB or less with the blinds at 1500-3000. He's made a good play and i dont think you can call.Tough one but its a laydown.

cardshark202

I think I fold here most of the time but I think there are severals parts of your post which seem astonishing. The min-raise with A9suited, the tiny raise and fold to a re-raise with AQ. I think there are areas which need to be assessed now which could help improve your tournament play in the future.

Fatboydim

cardshark202 wrote:

I think I fold here most of the time but I think there are severals parts of your post which seem astonishing. The min-raise with A9suited, the tiny raise and fold to a re-raise with AQ. I think there are areas which need to be assessed now which could help improve your tournament play in the future.

You see this is why poker is not just simply about the math. It's about the table, it's about image and it's about other players. Minimum raise with ace nine is simple... I'd just won an uncontested pot after a quick all in with AQ. Another all in might get a call as it looks weaker than a minimum bet. The minimum bet at that point could represent aces... my previous raises were with kings and aces... If the bet is called it's easier to get away from. If I hit I can take the chance of not getting called by an overpair as most likely an overpair would have reraised. Folding AQ to Fintan was earlier in the game and an easy fold I've got 2.5k in the pot and he makes it 7.5k. My only option then is to reraise all in. That was not the point at which I wanted to risk my tournament with only half the field gone. But with the A 10 I did, and I'll explain why. - To me if Stephen was on a strong hand he would not have raised all in with just the BB to call. He knows I'm coming in to the pot for the extra 700 - no matter what I have. He also knows I'm a player who is likely to fold. I've folded to much smaller raises and I'm not that fussed about protecting my blinds. Therefore if he min-raised or even made it 10k the message is stronger. He also asked Donal for a ruling on the size of his raise at this point... Do you think he doesn't know the rule? This from the player who reraised Fintan all in with a countdown to a call he knew he was going to make? Since Stephen joined the table he has taken on Fintan for the role of table captain.... any other player makes this move I fold... But Stephen's range of hands in this position is huge. he can't have complete pap because he's going to have to show it... I actually put him on mid-low pair. So now say that A 10 is AK... Do you call? For many of you if you are honest you're answer would be yes... So if it's right to take the gamble with AK it's right to take the gamble with A 10. And I was happy to do this even though I realise I'm more than likely drawing to only two aces as I'm sure manus has an ace with a better kicker... Stephen turned over pocket tens.

Nines I'm happy... But tens is a disaster for me as now I'm only drawing to the ace. Stephen's hand held.

But I would make the same play again... as for me this was at a point in the tournament where you had to get busy if you wanted to make top three. I'm not interested in just getting my money back... And if I fold I'm only just 10x the BB on a fast moving clock. Within a circuit of the table I'll be shortstacked.

I thought Stephen would go on to win it from there... But apparently he didn't... which just goes to show the volatility of this kind of tournament.

loosecannon

Fatboydim wrote:

And I was happy to do this even though I realise I'm more than likely drawing to only two aces as I'm sure manus has an ace with a better kicker... Stephen turned over pocket tens.

But I would make the same play again... as for me this was at a point in the tournament where you had to get busy if you wanted to make top three. I'm not interested in just getting my money back... .

i can't believe the two above statements

1. You realise that you are more than likely drawing to only 2 cards in the deck and you're happy to call? why? you're not that shortstacked and you are much better off pushing with your stack than calling when you know you're behind

2. slightly linked into your reasoning about calling, you're not interested in getting your money back? why not? no matter what stack you have surely you've more chance of winning the tourney than by getting it all in on a two outer?


as Jack Strauss said, 'all you need is a chip and a chair'!



ps as another thought i'm sure you'd have made a slight profit for making the money and it the long run that i'd take cashing a small profit each and every time!

cardshark202

Fatboydim wrote:

You see this is why poker is not just simply about the math. It's about the table, it's about image and it's about other players. Minimum raise with ace nine is simple... I'd just won an uncontested pot after a quick all in with AQ. Another all in might get a call as it looks weaker than a minimum bet. The minimum bet at that point could represent aces... my previous raises were with kings and aces... If the bet is called it's easier to get away from. If I hit I can take the chance of not getting called by an overpair as most likely an overpair would have reraised. Folding AQ to Fintan was earlier in the game and an easy fold I've got 2.5k in the pot and he makes it 7.5k. My only option then is to reraise all in. That was not the point at which I wanted to risk my tournament with only half the field gone. But with the A 10 I did, and I'll explain why. - To me if Stephen was on a strong hand he would not have raised all in with just the BB to call. He knows I'm coming in to the pot for the extra 700 - no matter what I have. He also knows I'm a player who is likely to fold. I've folded to much smaller raises and I'm not that fussed about protecting my blinds. Therefore if he min-raised or even made it 10k the message is stronger. He also asked Donal for a ruling on the size of his raise at this point... Do you think he doesn't know the rule? This from the player who reraised Fintan all in with a countdown to a call he knew he was going to make? Since Stephen joined the table he has taken on Fintan for the role of table captain.... any other player makes this move I fold... But Stephen's range of hands in this position is huge. he can't have complete pap because he's going to have to show it... I actually put him on mid-low pair. So now say that A 10 is AK... Do you call? For many of you if you are honest you're answer would be yes... So if it's right to take the gamble with AK it's right to take the gamble with A 10. And I was happy to do this even though I realise I'm more than likely drawing to only two aces as I'm sure manus has an ace with a better kicker... Stephen turned over pocket tens.

Nines I'm happy... But tens is a disaster for me as now I'm only drawing to the ace. Stephen's hand held.

But I would make the same play again... as for me this was at a point in the tournament where you had to get busy if you wanted to make top three. I'm not interested in just getting my money back... And if I fold I'm only just 10x the BB on a fast moving clock. Within a circuit of the table I'll be shortstacked.

I thought Stephen would go on to win it from there... But apparently he didn't... which just goes to show the volatility of this kind of tournament.

Well I don't think the min-raise with A9 was good at all. You have 21k with the blinds at 1.5k-3k. This is a push or fold hand no matter what way you look at it.

Raising 1.5 BBs with AQ in EP doesn't seem to have much purpose imo as it doesnt achieve much. Its just weak.

Also there is a huge difference between AK and AT. AT is a shít hand, AK is a monster. With AK you would have had a race against TT which obviously gives u a much better chance. Also, with AT, you know at best it is a race, whereas with AK, you could come up against AQ or maybe even AJ or something.

Anyway, I know you've had some nice tourney results in the past so maybe I shouldn't argue with you but I just felt these few situations stood out in the post so I thought I would point them out.

RoundTower

I fold here. You can't possibly be far ahead of his range and I don't see why you would put him on "a mid-low pair". The constant min bets and min raises seem to be a feature of your play, I don't like them but you've obviously been more successful in tournaments than I have. Yes, I would call with AK.

RoundTower

Oh I missed the running ante. Now I want to call.

padser

loosecannon wrote:

i can't believe the two above statements

1. You realise that you are more than likely drawing to only 2 cards in the deck and you're happy to call? why? you're not that shortstacked and you are much better off pushing with your stack than calling when you know you're behind
!

He is unconcerned about that since he will be behind in the small pot. Even if he was told before the hand that he was 100% to loose to the small stack he could still make the call as he would be loosing a 8K but might win the 60K one.

Having said that to my mind this is a fold. Your reasoning about if its a call with AK its a call with A10 doesnt stand stand up. AK dominates every Ax hand. A10 is dominated by the 3 Ax hands most likely to make this play. I cant really see you going into this hand as a favorite for the side pot so im folding.

Fatboydim

Like I said... In this tourney I have no interest in simply winning my money back or even a slight profit... If I win the hand I'm up to 62K [assuming Manus won his hand] and around 74k if I won the lot. Then I can challenge for top honours. There's no way that Stephen has AK, AQ or AJ in that position. There is the possibility that Manus is on a pair or K high as he is desperate... Even JQ - So like I say... short handed A 10 I'll take the gamble. For bigger money and bigger entry fee I play differently. Also I fold to any other player on the table as I’m less certain what they have. My read on Stephen was accurate... My misfortune was that he had tens. The top of the range I put him on as I think with jacks or higher he’d have risked action with either a limp or smaller raise. If he was on nines for example and Manus had KQ, perfectly possible in his position, the odds are remarkably even with A 10 at 32.92% / 99 at 34.14% and KQ at 32.93% - with an Ace missing against 99 the A 10 is a 4/6 dog. Which isn’t that dreadful. So that kind of puts it into perspective.

As for smallish raises from EP – did it twice…once I lost 2.5k and once I won 12k. I’ve got no problem with the way I played those hands. It really depends if you want flop action or not. It’s not good enough to just play ABC poker… if you always raise high with poor hands and low with monsters or vice versa… you’ll be found out. If you only play your own hands and not your opponents you’ll be found out. In this case I was willing to put my tournament on the line at that point And that’s really the nub of it. If I were to play it ABC then of course it is a fold every time no matter what I think Stephen has. There is also another point to this which is the next time Stephen and I are sat at a table he will know I “Have game” and as that is likely to be a tournament at higher stakes I consider it money invested.

Fatboydim

loosecannon wrote:

i can't believe the two above statements

slightly linked into your reasoning about calling, you're not interested in getting your money back? why not? no matter what stack you have surely you've more chance of winning the tourney than by getting it all in on a two outer?

I do have a reckless attitude to money - why my wife does the accounts... In Vienna there was a €150 sit n go that I entered when pissed. With absolutely no intention of winning the damn thing. It was purely for therapy. I was offered a bet that I wouldn's last fifteen minutes... I countered I wouldn't last ten. I lasted five minutes.:D

It's not that I'm loaded either... I'm not.. and Mrs Dim would kill me if I told her about that.. but I can honestly say it was money well spent.:D

cardshark202

Fatboydim wrote:

As for smallish raises from EP – did it twice…once I lost 2.5k and once I won 12k. I’ve got no problem with the way I played those hands. It really depends if you want flop action or not. It’s not good enough to just play ABC poker… if you always raise high with poor hands and low with monsters or vice versa… you’ll be found out. If you only play your own hands and not your opponents you’ll be found out. In this case I was willing to put my tournament on the line at that point And that’s really the nub of it. If I were to play it ABC then of course it is a fold every time no matter what I think Stephen has. There is also another point to this which is the next time Stephen and I are sat at a table he will know I “Have game” and as that is likely to be a tournament at higher stakes I consider it money invested.

No-one ever suggested making small raise with crap hands and big raises with big hands. That would be quite stupid. But in general, there is no place in poker for tiny-raises. I think they suck, especially if you are going to fold to a re-raise and if they are a significant percentage of your stack.

RoundTower

Like I said I think your call is fine but this is really messy thinking:

Fatboydim wrote:

There's no way that Stephen has AK, AQ or AJ in that position.

Of course there is. If he has AQ he almost certainly plays it the exact same way.

Fatboydim wrote:

There is the possibility that Manus is on a pair or K high as he is desperate... Even JQ

I don't know this Manus but presumably he has any two cards here. It's possible he has an A or a K or a pair despite the fact that he is desperate, not because of it.

Fatboydim wrote:

Also I fold to any other player on the table as I’m less certain what they have. My read on Stephen was accurate...

I can't believe you were at a table with 8 inscrutable poker faced game theoreticians you couldn't get a handle on, but could read Stephen like a book.

To me this sounds like results-oriented thinking throughout "my read was that he had a mid-low pair." This is like the people who come on here and post "I have TT, some guy goes all in, I put him on a low pair and definitely not AK or AQ or AA or KK or QQ or JJ, should I have called? Turns out he had 44 and hit a 4 on the river so just wondering what I did wrong."

Hectorjelly

I just skimmed the OP and was going to post that I thought the AQ fold was ok. Luckily I reread it - you have less than 6 blinds! Wild horses couldnt get me to fold any hand once id raised in that spot. The only reason not to push 1st time is to get action from worse hands, you simply cant fold in that spot with 72o, nevermind AQ.

Unfortunately when you get down to very shortstacked tournament situations, then it really is all about the maths.


Id fold the AT, I dont think you give up much equity in that spot and I dont see how you can be sure you are not up against AJ, AQ; which Stephen would be forced to push with. You have 10bbs which I would see as enough to pick up some blinds uncontested pretty easily from then on.

Fatboydim

Ok I'll fess up to one thing here... The AQ hand against Fintan... It was actually KQ and an easy fold ... But shhhh... I don't want him to know that.

As for Stephen having AQ ... i was willing to bet €120 that he didn't have an ace in his hand. Interestingly he was seat ten and I was seat 1... and he did tell me that he wouldn't have made that move if he had realised how many chips I had... Which is interesting as that slightly skews things. But in live games I'm very very accurate on my reads against good players. The problem with the Galway table was that it consisted of Galway players. To give an example - In an earlier hand - I have pocket kings. Blinds were 100 / 200 I make it 1k to go. Get two callers. Flop comes AQ9 two clubs. I'm first to act. I bet six hundred to test the ace. Two flat calls behind me. I put first caller on Q and second caller on Flush draw. But the ace is worrying and it could be that one of them has a rag ace that's suited. Turn is a brick. So I bet 1200 to test the waters again. And once again my bets is simply called in two spots. So now I'm convinced that first caller has the Q and second caller is drawing to the flush i don't think he has an ace. But it's enough that I'm going to check the river. River is a Q. I check first caller bets five grand in a heart beat... Looks like I was right he had the queen. 2nd caller and myself fold. Later the player who won the pot told me he had Q9 so the river gave him a boat. Tell me please how he didn't raise on the flop? How he risked the flush draw? Let alone anyone catching a higher two pair or trips. The same player later berated me for playing Aces strongly pre-flop. And on a huge pot with 9k in the middle he hits top pair and allows me to catch a set with bottom pair on the river. He calls Fintan's all in with one card to come on a rag ace which hadn't paired but might hit a gutshot. Others are pushing all in on KJ when there is no need to. Pocket fours seemed a big favourite to go all in with. And even to call all in's with - and this when the stacks are not under threat from the blinds. I once saw a guy in Galway bet into a made nut flush on the flop, do the same on the turn when a fourth spade came, and then called an all in on the river. And what did he have? A pair of twos where one was a spade... and he was surprised he lost the hand.:D