"BJJ gets owned by Wing Chun"

FiannaGym.com

So over on the underground some guy made a thread containing the following video....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=89tLmoCtjPc

and gave it the title "BJJ gets owned by Wing Chun". I was so happy to see this, I could wait to watch a video of a BJJ guy getting owned by a Wing Chun guy. Instead I got a staged video of 2 wing chun guys, one does a "shoot" (making all THE major "no-nos" of shoots) and gets beat by the other wing chun guy.

I felt sad. I mean I have never seen a video of 2 MMA guys, one pretending to do Wing CHun or Kung Fu or whatever. Its quite childish. It shows at least 2 things. A total disrespect for fellow martial artists. I would never assume I know the intricacies of another martial art. (not that a shoot should be intricate). And second the suspension of disbelief in their own style trough games that reaffirm their beleifs. Sad eitherway. It wil be a good day when these practices are extinct and only really good martial arts exist, be it Kung Fu, Judo, Savate, Boxing, etc.

Peace

john kavanagh

well to be fair to the guys they may have just been taping a demonstration of a possible (very poor!) counter to the shoot but then someone got hold of it and put it online saying this is actual footage of a fight...which it clearly is not.

sure the guy shooting is wearing WC clothing, if they were really being devious then they would have least of dressed him up in BJJ or MMA style clothing.

dlofnep

It's a complete work. Seen the video before. A lame attempt at bashing grappling.

Roper

I don't think the guy is pretending either. I think it's just two Wing Chun guys arsing about. I've seen "anti-grappling" demos like that, live, before where one guy plays the grappler and does it badly for the purpose of demonstrating a technique. It's people coming to terms with an obvious threat.

LOL at the shoot though, looked like one of my efforts, head down and do the Ram Man charge!!!

Millionaire

The WC guy was a mirror image of me attepmting to do a shoot!!!! LOL!!!!

but hey, sometimes you might not have the resources or a teacher near by to learn this stuff. so you have to look at a DVD, and try and figure it out yourself through trying it.

You should not be hard on people just because they are open and want to learn a new skill.

I took a few Thai boxers down with my home made mucker of a shoot. It worked fine, cause they are in a "muay thai" box, and I was thinking outside the box, and did what they did not expcet! So There!!!!! :-)

Roper

Just on a similar note to Pearses OP. I was training BJJ a couple of months when I went to a TKD class and the theme of the night was 'how to defend against a grappler'. I was pretty inexperienced, and when me and my partner turned up the contact, none of the stuff worked on me. Yet around us, everyone was like wow, that's great. And the reaction afterwards was really positive. I think it's really easy to stay in the comfort zone of your own back yard and make up fantasy defences against a grappler or stick fighter etc. Even if you're doing it in a live fashion, all guns blazing, the other guy still doesn't know sh1t about grappling so how is that a real test? That was one of my first "oh wait a second" moments I had with TKD.

Michael O Leary

I am looking forward to learning how to shoot properly in May. See you guys then.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

patjunfa

Everyone sussed effortlessly they wern't pretending to be grapplers, but Wing Chun heads on some class. Misnamed by someone
Fianna rather than this " It shows at least 2 things. A total disrespect for fellow martial artists"
Its just an excuse for you reitterate your bit "It wil be a good day when these practices are extinct and only really good martial arts exist, be it Kung Fu, Judo, Savate, Boxing, etc."
Respect?:(

Michael O Leary

Ach Patjunfa,

Let the baby have his bottle.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Cabelo

Watch out, in this case his bottle is the salmon of knowledge!

FiannaGym.com

patjunfa wrote:

Everyone sussed effortlessly they wern't pretending to be grapplers, but Wing Chun heads on some class. Misnamed by someone
Fianna rather than this " It shows at least 2 things. A total disrespect for fellow martial artists"
Its just an excuse for you reitterate your bit "It wil be a good day when these practices are extinct and only really good martial arts exist, be it Kung Fu, Judo, Savate, Boxing, etc."
Respect?:(

I think you should maybe PM or actually pay close attention to what I write before you go off like that. Simply, the above video is an example of bad martial arts, and the vast majority of the world is bad martial arts. Hopefully bad martial arts will become extinct and good martial arts will flourish. Now if you misunderstand my post well then, styles you think I think are "bad" should become extinct and your wrong. I htink everystyle has its use. But hopefully it willonly be the really good stuff that survives.

So in future rather than there being tones of poor TKD and some very good TKD, there will only be the good stuff, the same for drunken boxing and Mauy Thai. It just so happens that in the performace based, competative styles there is alot less bad stuff.

So my point still stands. Hopefully all the bad, McDojo martial arts will die out and only the realy good stuff will last. Would you not want that? Would you like people who want to learn TKD or Wing Chun to learn it from a bad club or a good club?


Peace

Cabelo

Anyone else have no idea how this relates to the above posty?

[back to dancing as a martial art... because that's how good I am]

loz

FiannaGym.com wrote:

I think you should maybe PM or actually pay close attention to what I write before you go off like that. Simply, the above video is an example of bad martial arts, and the vast majority of the world is bad martial arts. Hopefully bad martial arts will become extinct and good martial arts will flourish. Now if you misunderstand my post well then, styles you think I think are "bad" should become extinct and your wrong. I htink everystyle has its use. But hopefully it willonly be the really good stuff that survives.

So in future rather than there being tones of poor TKD and some very good TKD, there will only be the good stuff, the same for drunken boxing and Mauy Thai. It just so happens that in the performace based, competative styles there is alot less bad stuff.

So my point still stands. Hopefully all the bad, McDojo martial arts will die out and only the realy good stuff will last. Would you not want that? Would you like people who want to learn TKD or Wing Chun to learn it from a bad club or a good club?


Peace

I still want to know what happened when you hit that chi bloke with the meat cleaver, - did it just bounce off ? - does chi make skin like kevlar ? - what about if you just ran the cleaver of the skin ? would it have sliced or no ?

Millionaire

MMA is close to what Bruce Lee said its "no style" (cannot remember exact way he said it)

A street fight is no style too.

What wrong Fianna with someone doing a bad shoot.? Did you do a perfect Shoot the first time you tired to do one?

People got to start somewhere. I had trouble changing my kickboxing kicks, to Muay Thai kicks. and I am still trying to get good at MT kicks. It takes time to learn and develop.

Competitive Cage MMA people, do not have a legal exclusive franchise, saying they are only people allow do try a Shoot.

dlofnep

Nothing wrong with someone's inability to shoot correctly - But if they are trying to illustrate how good something is against grappling, the grappler should be at least competent in what he's doing.

Michael O Leary

Hi Dlofnep,

I actually 100% agree with you. And even when the opponent does a good "shoot" which the persons defends it does not mean too much as the person knows what attack is coming. I have read that a "shoot" is usually preceeded by a "feint" and before you know it you are on your ass. So it would seem that a good "starting" point would be to defend against a shoot done properly gradually building up the speed and intensity of the attack and then adding in all manner of other attacks, feints, etc and then seeing if you can cope with an unexpected "shoot".

You cannot compare bad "grappling" with good Wing Tsun/Chun. Only when all things are equal can you begin to make comparisions. But this also works the other way around. You cannot compare good MMA/BJJ to bad Wing Tsun/Chun. As I have always said too many people compare the best in what they do to the worst in others. This is only propaganda and ultimitely serves no use.

Fianna is up on his high horse because he feels that a "Wing Chun" is trying to trick people into thinking that he beat a BJJ guy. There are millions of people around the world doing Wing Tsun/Chun. All you have is a 5 second demo of one guy teaching his class one movement which someone else entitled, "BJJ gets owned by Wing Chun".

I am glad to hear Fianna the you would never assume to know the intricacies of another martial art. I will hold you to that.

While you are answering Loz's question on chi and the meat cleaver I have been waiting some time for you to answer Dave Joyce's question on whether you have a problem with the Machado brothers teaching American Special Forces.

Regards all,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

FiannaGym.com

Michael O Leary wrote:

Fianna is up on his high horse because he feels that a "Wing Chun" is trying to trick people into thinking that he beat a BJJ guy. There are millions of people around the world doing Wing Tsun/Chun. All you have is a 5 second demo of one guy teaching his class one movement which someone else entitled, "BJJ gets owned by Wing Chun".

Jeez guys how can you miss understand me so much? My point is quite simple. THere is good Wing Chun and Bad Wing Chun. In future I hope there will only be good Wing Chun. Liewise for all martial arts. Does anyone disagree with this? Michael O Leary, would you like to have McDojos or great places to train?
My point was simply: "It wil be a good day when these practices are extinct and only really good martial arts exist, be it Kung Fu, Judo, Savate, Boxing, etc." So the Wing Chun I did in Foshan was very good but the Wing Chun guys I fought when I did FC Kung Fu were not good. I think it would be great when people who do Martial Arts do good martial arts.
What I mean is, we are still in a world packed full of McDojos, the aftermath of the Karate Kid, Bruce Lee, JCVD boom. Hopefully as Martial Arts are more and more pressure tested that aspect of Martial Arts will disappear. Any body who does not want this to happen please give reasons.

For everyone who thinks I think doing a bad shoot is a bad thing your right, but I do understand that learning is a gradual process. I have video of my self fighting before I started Wrestling and my shoots looked like that dudes i.e. posture parallel to the ground, head ot the wrong side (basically the cardinal sins of a double leg). SO I know there is a learning curve. One I am still on. If you have seen me shoot in competition you'll know I'm hardly an NCAA champ ye know. However, if someone put a video here of TKD beating up Karate and the "Karate" was done badly by a TKD guy, I'd say "Wait a minute... thats disrespectful to Karate". I may not do Karate but if your going to demo it it is important that you respect it and do it well.

If I posted a video "Wing Chun gets its ass kicked" and I had an MMA guy doing Chi Sou (spelling?) and I hit him with a jab all the wing chun guys here would be up in arms and rightly so!

I hope you guys can see that I haven't criticised any martial art. Just bad Martial arts.... so are you guys who think your arguing with me trying to defend bad martial arts? I doubt it. I hope know on in this Wing Chun Class thinks they can successfully defend a shoot now you know. No more than I could defend a Wing Chun attack but getting one of my guys to pretend to be a Wing Chun guy.

So anytime you guys want to defend bad martial arts and McDojos, rather than dig me and talk about good or bad shoots or my high horse I'll be all ears. I suppose you may think of my argument about McDojos as a good shoot.

Peace

Michael O Leary

Hi Fianna,

Can you tell me if you have a problem with the Machado (spelling?) brothers teaching American special forces?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

FiannaGym.com

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Fianna,

Can you tell me if you have a problem with the Machado (spelling?) brothers teaching American special forces?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Where did that come from? What do you think about the Machado brothers teaching American Special Forces?

Peace

Valmont

I'm with you Fianna. It would be great if all the 'McDojos' disappeared but sadly it aint gonna happen. They have survived this long, I don't see why they can't last some more.

Why is everyone getting so mad over nothing?

Chill out dudes...:cool:

Colm_OReilly

There is a defence against a shoot, it's called the sprawl. Most wrestling takes place after the shoot and sprawl. But again, like everything else in fighting, it comes down to technique.

dlofnep

He shoots! He sprawls..

Michael O Leary

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Where did that come from? What do you think about the Machado brothers teaching American Special Forces?

Peace

Hi Fianna,

In a previous article entitled, "My new article" you stated to Dave Joyce who as part of the Sayoc Kali organisation has trained Navy Seals that you genuinely thought that anyone who aligns themselves to SEALS is at least one of many bad things. Dave asked you if you felt the same about the Machado brothers who have trained SEALS and as far as I am aware you never answered the question so I thought that you might oblidge us now.

I have been curious about your answer for some time now and seeing as how Loz has asked a question about chi and the meatcleaver from another thread I thought I would jump on the bandwagon and try and get you to clarify your position on the Machado brothers.

Personally I don 't really have an opinion on the training of SEALS or the Machado brothers. Maybe by clarifing your point you can help me to form one.

Peace,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

MaxBax

Finna which would you rather see go first, mcdojos or mcdonalds?

dlofnep

Maxbax, without you nobody would ask to much needed questions.

FiannaGym.com

Sorry Loz I forgot to answer your question!

Yeah I whacked him with the cleever and it just bounced back. I couldnt "slash" him because he hadn't reached that level yet. Now I dont care to speculate about weihter that was possible or not because for me whacking him full force with a cleever was good enough. I was nearly pissing myself to be honest! haha

Maxbax,
I'd like to see them both go, but of course I would prefer to see people have the option to train in McDojos and eat in McDonalds but also have the equipment and info to make good choices about that.

Michael,
To be honest I dont have much problem with the Machodos thraining Special Forces because it increases peoples awareness of BJJ and really has no impact on how many women and children are raped and killed by US agents anually. I do think it is ethically a bad idea to premote something or someone on the back of the US military. 1st because in terms of Military success America has one of the worst records, so if you are premoting yourself based on it it is based on pure ignorance or propiganda. 2nd because: war is bad end of story. I think it would be nicer to say "hey, we train Fear Factor's Joe Rogan!" or something.

Peace

P.S. I know Joe Rogan is a Brown Belt under Eddie Bravo, it was just an example and anyway Eddie is a BB under the machados.

Michael O Leary

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Michael,
To be honest I dont have much problem with the Machodos thraining Special Forces because it increases peoples awareness of BJJ and really has no impact on how many women and children are raped and killed by US agents anually.

Hi Fianna,

So do you feel that the Machodo brothers are at least one of many bad things as they have aligned themselves with Navy Seals or does it only apply to Dave Joyce and the Sayoc Kali organisation?


Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

JohnMc1

I saw one titled "Shootfighter gets owned by Wing Chun" The shootfighter wore the WC dojo t-shirt so it was obviously a propoganda clip.

mikeruurds

JohnMc1 wrote:

I saw one titled "Shootfighter gets owned by Wing Chun" The shootfighter wore the WC dojo t-shirt so it was obviously a propoganda clip.

I'll wager this is the same clip as the one you've seen.

dlofnep

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Fianna,

So do you feel that the Machodo brothers are at least one of many bad things as they have aligned themselves with Navy Seals or does it only apply to Dave Joyce and the Sayoc Kali organisation?


Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Machado*

I don't see what the problem would be with them instructing anyone.. They are the creme of the crop in BJJ.

FiannaGym.com

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Fianna,

So do you feel that the Machodo brothers are at least one of many bad things as they have aligned themselves with Navy Seals or does it only apply to Dave Joyce and the Sayoc Kali organisation?


Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

I really think you should go back and edit that post man. I made my position clear on what I think about the Machados training SEALS. I didnt say anything about Dave Joyce or Soyac Kali, I dont know Dave Joyce, I've never met the guy I dont know anything about "the Soyac Kali Organisation". If you cant understand what Im writing please do not hesitate to PM me.

Just incase what I said in previous posts was too cryptic. I think the United States Military apparatus is representative of the scum of the earth. THerefore any ideological state apparatus that allligns itself with said is alligning itself with, what I consider, the scum of the earth. I have no doubt that the people involved dont think this for many reasons. I would argue the main reason is due to the fact that this behaviour is driven from its status as a second order myth. In short, marketing ones self, or beliving in oneself, or generally having anything to do with the Military is a bad thing. Not so much in the majority of UN countries but certainly in the USA. Of course, its not the triangle chokes that the "Special Forces" learn from the machados that are killing onnocent people everyday in Iraq, its obviously the system that allows public money be turned into private money thats doing the killing. So on ethical grounds I think the Machados training "special forces" is bad.

THere is also a difference between teaching BJJ, which is a non-lethal fun sport, and learning "lethal" techniques from the US military machine, which is of course, the least qualified military to teach it. So why do people want to learn from a Military with such a poor record? I can only imagine its that second order myth at play again! Or maybe its Rambo he frickin kicked ass dude!

Also, when I answer threads on this board by and large I mean what I say. Not what could be taken from what I say, not extensions from it if you use sudologic or any of that. So if I have a problem with the US Military, thats what I mean, I hope no-one would try and extrapilate meaning beyond what that says. Which people tend to do. If I think alligning ones self with the US military is unethical, well thats what I mean. It doesnt mean I judge people who are or think any less of them, it means what it means, if it meant more I would say so. Great example actually...

Michael O Leary wrote:

So do you feel that the Machodo brothers are at least one of many bad things as they have aligned themselves with Navy Seals

No I think thats bad ethics not bad martial arts.

I hope we're all cool now?

Peace and Love

"We are all one!"

Oh yeah, what I meant to say was. Attacking me or other post I make doesnt mean this thread any less valid. So to get abck on topic... if your arguing with me saying that I'd like to see bad martial arts extinct what would you rather see?

Colm_OReilly

Whoops! In my post at the top of this page the line was meant to read "everything comes down to skill", not "technique" as posted above. For someone whose pet peeve is the misuse of these words I'm going to have to do some punishment hindu squats!

JohnMc1

mikeruurds wrote:

I'll wager this is the same clip as the one you've seen.

Yep its the same one.

Michael O Leary

Hi Fianna,

I am not attacking you. I just wanted you to clarify your position. You seemed to use strong language in stating that anyone who aligned themselves with US special forces was at least one of many bad things. This was in the context of Dave Joyce and the Sayoc Kali organisation (self-defense martial arts) training Navy Seals. However when Dave asked you whether this applied to the Machado brothers (BJJ=sports martial arts) you never replied and it seemed as if you were applying double standards. It seemed as if not matter what comes up you were just sprouting the old mantra. Sports=good, self-defense=bad in a type of "Animal Farm" way. (4 legs good, 2 legs bad) However you seem to take great exception to people misunderstanding you so in order to give you the benefit of the doubt I asked you to clarify your position which you have done. However there is a difference in feeling that the training of special forces by the Machado's is bad and they themselves are at least one of many bad things. The former suggests someone is guilty of a bad action, the latter that they are in some way bad themselves.

Anyway,,,back on topic. Do I want to see bad martial arts extinct? Well on the plus side in comparision they make me and what I do look good. But I "do" take your point and if someone is showing how to defend against a BJJ shoot then the attacker should be doing it properly. But did the person in the clip say the other guy was doing BJJ? No he didn't. Someone else posted it as BJJ and someone else again posted it as defence against shootfighting. You felt he was trying to pass this off as a real fight when clearly no one else has. Everyone can see it is just a demo. Its nothing to get personally offended about.

Anyway now that we are cool can you tell me a little more about the Wing Chun you came across in Fatshan/Foshan and how it was better than the other Wing Chun you came across in your competitions. I have heard this confirmed by others including one of my instructors who during a Wing Tsun team visit to Hong Kong in 1993 observed that the standard of Wing Chun was pretty poor in comparision to that practised in Fatshan/Foshan.

Regards + peace,

Michael.
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

FiannaGym.com

Hi Michael,

I'm not applying double standards and if the people who align themselves with the US military are guilty of anything I would say ignorance. The machodos are of course incredible martial artist, but I think their decision to train the US military is a bad ethical move. Reguarding Soyac Kali, thats the only point I was making, nothing to do with the standard of Martial Arts, just what I consider a bad ethical move.

I came to training Wing Chun in FOshan when I travelled there and demoed at a big masters demonstration in 2000 (I'm not sure if it was 2000 or 2001 tbh). Anyway at the demo I got asked to go to a couple of gyms afterwards. In some the standard was high in others low. But the Wing CHun was very good. I mean that in general Kung Fu terms. It may have been sloppy of there may have been some sort of specific stuff that wasnt great but someone who knows about Wing Chun would be able to tell that, not me. All in all they had good kung fu.

In Liverpool I fought some Wing Chun guys and the standard of Kung Fu was lower. THats gonna be for a load of reasons but the complete relience of the straight line left tham at the mercy of the styles that used heavy swinging shots. That said the realy good guys might have been competing in Chi Sou (sp?).

The biggest difference between the styles here and htere was the way they learned. Generally the sets I have seen demoed over hear are mcuh shorter than over there so over there there is a large emphasis with conditioning, likewise the use of Ironrings and Lion Dancing made them really strong. The other thing is I think Wing Chun is comprised of 3 sets (you can correct me on that) one of which is a Dummy set. So most guys I met there, be they Wing CHun or not generally weren't confined to a style but the various sets. So Most new a set from Wing CHun, Hung Gar and CHoy Lay Fut. THen some guys new Drunken, Eagles Claw, Wuhu stuff, 5 animals etc etc. THey very much picked and choosed what they liked or were told to learn. Also all the masters seemed to know every kung fu set ever hahah I know they didnt but it seemed like that. On top of this in Guangzhou and Hong Kong all the external styles (I know no style is really external or internal but a mixture of both) did hard Chi Kung.

The best thing about going to Foshan? Its where "The Prodigal Son" is from! Yes!

Peace