Snowmen in big blind

Iceman78

This hand occurred on the final table in a PP satellite last night and i just want to see how people would have played it. There are 8 players left at this stage and top 5 qualify for final on sunday. I am shortstacked with about 6k before the hand, blinds 600/1200. There is one other player with about same chips as me. All other players have at least 12k. The table has been very loose and lots of players are limping in trying to see flops which is very unusual at a final table especially in a satellite.

I get dealt snowmen in big blind. 3 limpers including 2 chip leaders who both have close to 30k. Small blind calls too. My read on both chip leaders is that they are both loose aggressive and would have raised with good hands. Dont have a read on other limper as he has not played many hands yet. Small blind looked like he called just for value as he was getting very good pot odds.

What is my play here?

brianmc

You have 5 Big Blinds, lots of limpers, and a pair of snowmen.

Push.

fuzzbox

Push

Iceman78

Why push?

Do you think i have enough chips behind to get both chip leaders off their hands? If they have any 2 over cards and call, its a coinflip.

brianmc

Push because you don't have enough chips left to be playing poker.

You are desperate for chips now. You have a pocket pair. You will quite likely get called by somebody but with a bit of luck you'll be up against over cards and your 88 will stand up.

While it would be nice not to get called here, getting called isn't terrible. Hey! It's more chips!

califano

Iceman78 wrote:

Why push?

Do you think i have enough chips behind to get both chip leaders off their hands? If they have any 2 over cards and call, its a coinflip.

Exactly. Push.

ianmc38

You're happy with a coinflip here. You've got less than 3 orbits left.

Zulu

Push.

Iceman78

Well it seems like everyone thinks i should push. Maybe i played it wrong then.

I just checked and 5 of us saw a flop. Flop came down KQ6 rainbow. Small blind checked as did I. Big raise from chip leader, all in from next player. I fold and chip leader calls and takes him out with KQ. Other player had AK. I think both would have called and i would have been out if i had gone all in.

I eventually managed to get into top 5 as very next hand 2 chip leaders clashed and all money went in pre flop.

I was happy with my play at the time as it was a satellite and i only wanted to make top 5. It is not the way i would normally play snowmen though at the final table in this situation. Usually i would push so i aint disagreeing with everyone here.

califano

Objection. Entrapment;)

mewso

Iceman78 wrote:

I eventually managed to get into top 5 as very next hand 2 chip leaders clashed and all money went in pre flop.

I would agree with pushing but considering 2 chips leaders tangled you may need to legislate for extreme stupidity.

Iceman78

It was hilarious watching the 2 chip leaders clash when they were miles ahead of everyone else and could have just folded into top 5.

I had been chatting to one who went out and he could not believe i was giving him abuse for going all in against the other chip leader when he had been reraised. He had AKs and was of the opinion that this hand should never be laid down. In fairness, it turned out that both players were not much good as other chip leader reraised all in with pocket 9s which held up.

I could not believe their play but was delighted to see it.

Iago

you're on the right side of a 50:50 if you get called and will more than double up. You have to push here.

the fact that you made the last 5 because of inept play doesn't make your play right, if you're in this situation 100 times I would say you might make the last 5 20 times out of that hundred, and I think I'm being generous.

I accept your rationale, but I don't agree with it.

Iceman78 wrote:

I fold and chip leader calls and takes him out with KQ. Other player had AK. I think both would have called and i would have been out if i had gone all in.

would have been a different flop if the action had changed.

Iceman78

I dont agree with you Iago in relation to making top 5 20 times out of 100 if i played my hand the same every time.

I felt that i was one of better players at table and would get a better chance to double my chips against one player heads up. I had reads on most players and felt that they were mainly loose and would call my shortstack all ins with marginal hands.

Snowmen do not play well in multi way pot and if i had went all in, i think i would have got at least 2 callers and maybe 3.

wayfarer

But if you had pushed, there is a strong chance that one of the big stacks would have pushed to isolate, leaving a lot of dead money in the pot and giving you great odds. Id say this would happen often enough to make it a more profitable play.

sleepypriest

Iceman78 wrote:

I felt that i was one of better players at table and would get a better chance to double my chips against one player heads up. I had reads on most players and felt that they were mainly loose and would call my shortstack all ins with marginal hands.

.

You have 18 hands left given your stack and the blinds, now I am no maths guru but I would say a pair of 8's is miles ahead pre flop than any random hand you get in the next 18.

plus if you do wait one more orbit and if you do get the nuts preflop AA and then push you will only have 4200 to push with which isn't going to scare anyone away, suddenly this changes to a bad beat story of how your aces got cracked by 72os

5starpool

Iceman78 wrote:

I dont agree with you Iago in relation to making top 5 20 times out of 100 if i played my hand the same every time.

I felt that i was one of better players at table and would get a better chance to double my chips against one player heads up. I had reads on most players and felt that they were mainly loose and would call my shortstack all ins with marginal hands.

Snowmen do not play well in multi way pot and if i had went all in, i think i would have got at least 2 callers and maybe 3.

How do you reckon to use a 4BB stack to outplay inferior opponents when quite conceivably you may get dealt non-pairs and lots of gapped unsuited cards for the next 12 hands. You already said there were lots of limpers every hand. It is harder to push them off it the less chips you have.

You would not get a better opportunity than 88. It sounds like they were crap players who imploded, allowing you to coast home rather like the Australian speed skater Steven Bradbury in the 2002 Winter Olympics (really funny that).

brianmc

5starpool wrote:

How do you reckon to use a 4BB stack to outplay inferior opponents when quite conceivably you may get dealt non-pairs and lots of gapped unsuited cards for the next 12 hands. You already said there were lots of limpers every hand. It is harder to push them off it the less chips you have.

You would not get a better opportunity than 88. It sounds like they were crap players who imploded, allowing you to coast home rather like the Australian speed skater Steven Bradbury in the 2002 Winter Olympics (really funny that).

Me googles "Steven Bradbury 2002 Olympics".

Iceman, 5starpool has it bang on there.

You are overestimating what you will be able to achieve with your remaining 4BBs.

The C Kid

5starpool wrote:

It sounds like they were crap players who imploded, allowing you to coast home rather like the Australian speed skater Steven Bradbury in the 2002 Winter Olympics (really funny that).

Speed skating rules. My personal favourite was the American who during heats for the final, from which two qualified, was comfortably in second place approaching the final turn and attempted to pass the skater in first place. Needless to say he stumbled and fell, missing out on a place.

The definition of a ---EV move.

ianmc38

The C Kid wrote:

Speed skating rules. My personal favourite was the American who during heats for the final, from which two qualified, was comfortably in second place approaching the final turn and attempted to pass the skater in first place. Needless to say he stumbled and fell, missing out on a place.

The definition of a ---EV move.

Post this over in the speed skating forum ffs.

Jebus :rolleyes:

Iago

Iceman78 wrote:

I dont agree with you Iago in relation to making top 5 20 times out of 100 if i played my hand the same every time.

I felt that i was one of better players at table and would get a better chance to double my chips against one player heads up.

your ability vis a vis the other players at the table is completely irrelevant when the only play open to you is push or fold preflop.

you're right not to agree though, I think 20 is very generous

Iceman78

Why would my only move be push or fold pre flop when im in big blind and there has not been a raise?????

Iago

I'm talking about after your limp with 88, because that's your frame of reference.

You now can only push or fold. You're going to lose 1/6th of your stack on the SB unless it's folded to you and you have a big hand.

Now you've only got 3.5BBs left and any push is going to get a caller. You can't outplay anyone because you're either all-in and called or folding and being blinded away.

You have 12 hands to hope that 3 players get knocked out or you get a big enough hand to survive a call.

Now lets say you push with your 88, and get called. If you win here you now have 15.6K which is more than enough to make sure you make the last 5.

If you lose then you've saved yourself the time it would take to get knocked out by waiting for a big hand/getting unlucky or getting your money in with the worst of it.

If you push and nobody calls then you have 10.8K and although you're still tight you've bought yourself some time.

As I said I see your rationale, but I think you've dropped below the point where you can apply it and win on a regular basis.

5starpool

Iceman78 wrote:

Why would my only move be push or fold pre flop when im in big blind and there has not been a raise?????

Iago is referring to other hands subsequent to this when you have 4BB (including posted sb for one hand) at most, since you played your 88 so passively.

Then your only move is push or fold, else how do you expect to push someone off a pot with a tiny all in postflop which you need to hit hard?

It worked out this time, but just because something works out does not make it a good move. Calling and hitting a miracle card when you are way behind for example. This is a shocking outdraw, and not some inspired 'I knew I would win' play.

If you are not seeing the point that we are making then you may need to re-evaluate your playing ability. Being that shortstacked when there are 3 players from 7 others to get eliminated before you when they are all better stacked than you is not the time to 'outplay' people. It is ram and jam time.

Iceman78

I see both of your points. You are right and maybe i did get lucky this time and it wont happen like that every time. I just did not fancy pushing here with 88 as i reckon i would have got a couple of callers and it dont hold up very often in a multi way pot.

As i said earlier in a normal tourney, i would push every time at final table with this hand if i was shortstacked but maybe i just play satellites the wrong way at moment.

Thanks for all the advice.

5starpool

As you point out, satellites are a different beast, and should be played accordingly, but under any circumstances here you are in trouble of being blinded away. If you were better stacked then there is a lot of merit in passively playing a hand like this in the BB at this stage of a satellite.

Pokerguru

Iceman78 wrote:

It was hilarious watching the 2 chip leaders clash when they were miles ahead of everyone else and could have just folded into top 5.

I had been chatting to one who went out and he could not believe i was giving him abuse for going all in against the other chip leader when he had been reraised. He had AKs and was of the opinion that this hand should never be laid down.

I've stopped being amazed at the incredible lack of even basic tournament strategy in these satellite tournys on ppp. The last one I played much the same thing happened. Both chip leaders had over 30k in chips each and were guarranteed a seat. 2 players left to the money...950 stack and me with 3k. Three times they went head to head with each other all in. Eventually the chip leader busts out of the money. Only 1 player left till money now. The shortstack calls my bb all in with his 950 stack, chip leader calls from sb. I hit top pair, but obviously check it down with the chip leader to ensure it's 2/1 against the last all in player. The chip leader goes all in against me on the river, so I fold expecting to see a strong hand. He has 93off and not even a pair. So the last all in player lives. I tried to explain the crass stupidity of this move to the player in question, but I was told to stop whinging...huh. As it happens I managed to qualify, but only through more stupid play when another biggish stack had his AA cracked by this genius.

This is not an isolated case. I've only been playing on ppp since the Irish Open qualifiers have started, but see this complete lack of basic tournament strategy all the time. The sad thing is that some of these donkeys will get lucky and manage to win a seat. Makes you wonder just how much dead money will be in this thing at Easter.

Hectorjelly

brianmc wrote:

Push.

.