Article: Cullen outlines vision for new driving licence

Seth Brundle

from http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/03/22/story250545.html

Cullen outlines vision for new driving licence
22/03/2006 - 19:02:39

A credit card style driving licence complete with a microchip could harmonise penalty points and prosecution across Europe, a Dáil committee heard tonight.

Transport Minister Martin Cullen believes the move could have positive results for road safety in Ireland deterring van drivers from getting behind the wheel.

But such a scenario could be years away and may never even materialise.

Discussing Monday’s EU Transport Council meeting Minister Cullen told the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport key items on the agenda would include road safety, aviation security and public transport.

He admitted he wasn’t happy about a recent ruling banning the outsourcing of 40,000 driving tests to private companies. He said: “The existing system cannot cope.

“We put forward a very good solution for a fixed number of tests over a fixed period of time to get rid of the backlog.

“It is not acceptable young men and women in this country can’t get a driving test.”

He added negotiations were ongoing to find a solution.

drdre

yeah i think thats a good idea, the driving licence will be nice and small but as it says in the news, that lets just wait and see even if its realeased.

seamus

4 years ago he said it would be made available "This Autumn". That is, Autumn 2002.

crosstownk

Maybe another Martin Cullen 'special' - like electronic voting............

junkyard

To be honest once Martin Cullen is involved you can say goodbye to any cost effective or time efficient solution, if that idiot was working for me I'd have fired him years ago. But what the f**k its only tax payers money they squander, like they give a s**t. The sooner people wake up to the inefficient government we have and realise that we are still being ripped off at every turn the better.:(

crosstownk

All governments are percieved as inefficient. Legislation is so complex it can hinder things at times - it's a vicious circle sometimes if you ask me. I thought Seamus Brennan was much more 'involved' in the transport issue. Don't flame me - I'm not a Seamus Brennan supporter any more than I am a Martin Cullen supporter even though I am an FFer!!

junkyard

Don't get me wrong I'm not just an anti-Fianna Failer I'm anti all of them! How many times have we been let down by them? I for one have decided that enough is enough and I'm making a stand. I think if enough people stood firm and hit the politicians where it hurts, remember they are our employees they should do what we want not what their advisor's tell them is for our betterment. I'm just sick of all the scams and wasting of money when so much good could be done if only they got their act together.

endplate

This has gone way off topic

maidhc

I think we should be bloody thankful for the politicians we have got. Cullen is incompetent alright, and obnoxious, but by and large they are not doing *that* bad a job. I would love to see Cullen gone, and Dempsey and O'Cuiv with him, but I dont think it is fair to castigate the government on every ground over everything.

Imagine if we live in the UK where Blair and co lie in parliament every day about going to war, ID cards, policing etc etc.

Btw what does this mean: "Transport Minister Martin Cullen believes the move could have positive results for road safety in Ireland deterring van drivers from getting behind the wheel."

prospect

junkyard wrote:

Don't get me wrong I'm not just an anti-Fianna Failer I'm anti all of them! How many times have we been let down by them? I for one have decided that enough is enough and I'm making a stand. I think if enough people stood firm and hit the politicians where it hurts, remember they are our employees they should do what we want not what their advisor's tell them is for our betterment. I'm just sick of all the scams and wasting of money when so much good could be done if only they got their act together.

Way off topic, but I have to say I am a bit fed up with this kinda attitude.

Sure, the electronic voting was a f**K up, as was the luas timeline and budget, and the port tunnel timeline, and the current healthcare issues, etc.etc.

But you have to remember, this is one of the smallest countries in Europe. It is one of the furthest removed islands from mainland europe. In real terms we are only a fairly young country, and were ravaged by a major famine.

Yet, we are now one of the strongest economies in Europe, we have one of the highest standards of living, and our un-employment is among the lowest. On average we earn more than fellow europeans.

So it is not all bad, and remember:
"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, but, it is just as hard to cut it"

Back on topic,
I would love to see a credit card 'chipped' driving license, it is such a simple thing, that would make life alot easier, for the Motorist & the Gardai.

Hagar

from http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/03/22/story250545.html

Transport Minister Martin Cullen believes the move could have positive results for road safety in Ireland deterring van drivers from getting behind the wheel.

What has this to do with van drivers?
Did I miss something? Or have the gobshites made a hames of a press release again?

Seth Brundle

Actually would the credit card style licence be subject to the annual tax on credit cards?

LFCFan

Although something like a CC style Driving License isn't something that will change our lives in a big way, it's something that is a real indicator of how useless our Government can be. And don't try to talk about legislation taking time to put through. If they really want to put something through they can and in a very short space of time. Just look at the magic mushrooms!! If our government think something will win them votes, they'll do it, eventually. If it's something a minority give a sh1t about they will promise it at some stage and then put it on the back burner.

Seth Brundle

Sure just look at the Rules of the Road. IIRC it was last updated in 1994!
There have been various feeble excuses over the years about why a new publication has been delayed.

blastman

prospect wrote:

I would love to see a credit card 'chipped' driving license, it is such a simple thing, that would make life alot easier, for the Motorist & the Gardai.

I can see how a CC-sized licence would be easier to carry for the motorist (as I actually have one), but that's about it. How would having a "chipped" card benefit anyone? I know some gardai may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer, but they can surely read a name and address and match your face to the visual representation currently on your existing licence.

prospect

blastman wrote:

I can see how a CC-sized licence would be easier to carry for the motorist (as I actually have one), but that's about it. How would having a "chipped" card benefit anyone? I know some gardai may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer, but they can surely read a name and address and match your face to the visual representation currently on your existing licence.

They could fit out the patrol cars with card readers, which would give the guard immediate access to a full driving history of the driver, i.e if they have penalty points, have they been stopped before, etc. etc.
Possibly, if there is a warrant out for an individuals arrest, it could be uploaded to the database, and on the off-chance they are stopped for a motoring offence, they could easily be nabbed? something like that, i'm not sure really, but I think it gives the whole system more scope.

maidhc

prospect wrote:

They could fit out the patrol cars with card readers, which would give the guard immediate access to a full driving history of the driver, i.e if they have penalty points, have they been stopped before, etc. etc.
Possibly, if there is a warrant out for an individuals arrest, it could be uploaded to the database, and on the off-chance they are stopped for a motoring offence, they could easily be nabbed? something like that, i'm not sure really, but I think it gives the whole system more scope.

I think it is dangerous to give that much power to the gardaí. What will be interesting will be to see if they try putting the PPS number on the driving licence (it is illegal for a garda to ask you for it atm). If the PPS number is put on the licence, then voila, an ID card.

I have a certain distaste for all this "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear rhetoric" from the "decent god fearin' folk"

prospect

maidhc wrote:

I think it is dangerous to give that much power to the gardaí. What will be interesting will be to see if they try putting the PPS number on the driving licence (it is illegal for a garda to ask you for it atm). If the PPS number is put on the licence, then voila, an ID card.

I have a certain distaste for all this "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear rhetoric" from the "decent god fearin' folk"

Oh, I certainly agree, there must be limits to what they can do.

But the Gardai should have access to anyones criminal (what I mean by this is, if the drivers card says they are on the sex offenders registar, and there is two little boys in the back of the car munching sweets, wll work the rest out yourself).
And the Gardai should have access to anyones CURRENT driving records, (what I mean by this is, if the driver had 2 penalty points, and the three year period has expired, then this information should be wiped from their card).

I remember reading that a huge percentage of criminals in the US are caught initially for road traffic offenses. Because their cops have in-car computers to access criminal and driving information.

But as you correctly pointed out, there needs to be a line that cannot be crossed.

Rovi

prospect wrote:

They could fit out the patrol cars with card readers, which would give the guard immediate access to a full driving history of the driver, i.e if they have penalty points, have they been stopped before, etc. etc.
Possibly, if there is a warrant out for an individuals arrest, it could be uploaded to the database, and on the off-chance they are stopped for a motoring offence, they could easily be nabbed? something like that, i'm not sure really, but I think it gives the whole system more scope.

Hmmmmm...

Big Brother, IMO.

.

LFCFan

prospect wrote:

I remember reading that a huge percentage of criminals in the US are caught initially for road traffic offenses. Because their cops have in-car computers to access criminal and driving information.

Exactly. The cops over there know who they are potentially dealing with before they even get out of the car which means they can do a threat assessment. Here the Gardai haven't a clue who owns the car etc etc. It's not just for people they have pulled over. If they noticed some suspicious behaviour from a car they could pull up the cars details straight away and deal with any potential trouble. It's time Ireland's law enforcment caught up with the late 20th century, nevermind the 21st century. FFS, they haven't even got an electronic penalty points system in place yet.

ambro25

prospect wrote:

I would love to see a credit card 'chipped' driving license, it is such a simple thing, that would make life alot easier, for the Motorist & the Gardai.

Oh, for sure. Nothing easier to tamper than an EEPROM :rolleyes: "Sh*t! got another 2 points!"... "Oh well, no bother, that mate of the mate of my mate has a hacked card reader, he' ll zap them from the card for €50." I can see that one coming on clear as day.

kbannon wrote:

Actually would the credit card style licence be subject to the annual tax on credit cards?

LOL! Nice one

What's wrong with a simple biometric (fingerprint) card instead? And a working central database that is wirelessly distributed to pandas? It's not that difficult a feckin' job these days, is it? :mad:

prospect

ambro25 wrote:

Oh, for sure. Nothing easier to tamper than an EEPROM :rolleyes: "Sh*t! got another 2 points!"... "Oh well, no bother, that mate of the mate of my mate has a hacked card reader, he' ll zap them from the card for €50." I can see that one coming on clear as day.

Okay, I am just expressing a thought, I haven't done a complete proposal on the whole system or anything...

Anyway, I would imagine the card would only hold a reference number, which when inserted into a reader gives access to that individuals information on a central database.

Why do you feel the need to be pedantic about this...

Seth Brundle

There is a skit in the current Phoenix...

Minister Cullen 'on the verge' of success
TRANSPORT MINISTER Martin Cullen is "99.9% certain to get something right very soon," Government sources claimed today.
Support for the minister comes after his plan to outsource driving lessons very nearly came off only to be pipped at the post. "Look, if that had been 12 months ago, he wouldn't have even got the idea away from the kerb!" said one colleague and close friend.
"Poor Martin was so, so, so close to getting it right this time. But he's nearly there. I bet you a tenner that any day now he'll bury the electroneic voting fiasco, the 'Monicagate' mess and the Dublin Port shambles and the whole country wll see his true potential! Er..."

maidhc

ambro25 wrote:

What's wrong with a simple biometric (fingerprint) card instead? And a working central database that is wirelessly distributed to pandas? It's not that difficult a feckin' job these days, is it? :mad:

It works so long as

a) everyone has well defined fingerprints (not everyone does)
b) You give the constitution the go by and force people to submit to being fingerprinted while not suspected of any crime.
c) You assume that a secure system can be built.

The UK was very gung-ho about using biometrics in their ID card, but recently seem to be saying words like "chip and pin".

The best thing they could do is just stick to what they have but get a card manufacturer to put the information on a more resilient card. Of course it can be tampered with just the same as the paper document, but what the hell, it is still the cheapest and easiest solution.

ambro25

prospect wrote:

Okay, I am just expressing a thought, I haven't done a complete proposal on the whole system or anything...

Anyway, I would imagine the card would only hold a reference number, which when inserted into a reader gives access to that individuals information on a central database.

Why do you feel the need to be pedantic about this...

Chill, prospect. It wasn't an attack on you/your post, and I don't think I was being pedantic. I just made a very cynical observation about the latest hare-brained scheme apparently en vogue, which is going to suck €millions for not much results, and which is (yet again) a prime example of putting the cart before the horse: driving license, the testing thereof and the whole points system is still pretty much shambolic, and I fail to see why and how spending €ms of tax payers money to keep up with the Joneses (where cards, formats, etc. are concerned) is going to help in that respect.

Sort the driving license system (and granting thereof) and points first, the corresponidng database(s) and procedures governing what goes in/out/when, preferably at the same time or in close second, then think about ways and means of carrying that data/distributing it to whomever is entitled to it (e.g. Gardai). Just a bit of common sense, is all.

maidhc wrote:

It works so long as

a) everyone has well defined fingerprints (not everyone does)
b) You give the constitution the go by and force people to submit to being fingerprinted while not suspected of any crime.
c) You assume that a secure system can be built.

The UK was very gung-ho about using biometrics in their ID card, but recently seem to be saying words like "chip and pin".

I've had a FR identity card for over 10 years in which my fingerprint is embedded (in an alphanumerical, machine-readable identifying code on it), have renewed my FR passport last year wherein the fingerprint is also embedded in the same code. I haven't had any instances happen where I've had to cry Big Brother/Violation of Privacy and what other nonsense - but then I'm a good guy, not 'known to Police Services', respectful of others and their properties, I pay my taxes, etc, etc.

The only people afraid of ID cards (biometric or otherwise, and which such a license would be) are either (i) people who have something to hide/to gain in not being traceable/identifiable, or (ii) people who jump on the fashionable political bandwagon of privacy laws, with full knowledge of the facts or worse, without - but that's only my opinion, you can of course disagree

(maidhc's taste notwithstanding - and I'm about as far removed from a "decent god fearin' folk" as you could get this legal side of life )

Oh - that's a 60 million inhabitants country, btw. And not a 'Tiger'. So people are saying a tech-savvy, booming-economy country of 3 or 4 million inhabitants can't get their collective thumbs out of their @rses, basically? :rolleyes:

maidhc wrote:

The best thing they could do is just stick to what they have but get a card manufacturer to put the information on a more resilient card.

Indeed - my only point, tbh.

maidhc

ambro25 wrote:

The only people afraid of ID cards (biometric or otherwise, and which such a license would be) are either (i) people who have something to hide/to gain in not being traceable/identifiable, or (ii) people who jump on the fashionable political bandwagon of privacy laws, with full knowledge of the facts or worse, without - but that's only my opinion, you can of course disagree

I know of a stituation recently where an accused was able to get the home address of a judge and arresting garda though the present vehicle licencing system. So much for having nothing to hide.

I have no problem with an intelligently designed ID Card/Drivers licence/whatever with proper technological and legal safeguards. I have my doubts about such being achieveable at the moment (just like e voting really, great in principle, but poor in execution)

ambro25

maidhc wrote:

I know of a stituation recently where an accused was able to get the home address of a judge and arresting garda though the present vehicle licencing system. So much for having nothing to hide.

Hang a sec' and rewind a tad' - what has the vehicle licencing system got to do with a personal form of identification? This situation to which you refer is an entirely different debate: that of illegal access to the repository of personal information, which is the same, in a way, as email scams, phishing and what-have-you. Extrapolating a bit, someone may hack into the Irish Passport database (which already exists, and everyone has a Passport) for the same data - so what's your point?

EDIT - I do hear you, re. your second paragraph, though

maidhc

ambro25 wrote:

Hang a sec' and rewind a tad' - what has the vehicle licencing system got to do with a personal form of identification?

ID cards always have a database of some form, which tends to be the weakest link, espcially when it can be accessed from multiple points. They are different but inextricably linked. The closest we have to such a database (in the context of motorists) at the moment is the NVDF (national vehicle & driver file) and records held by the licencing authorities. It is scary how easy it is to access this.

If through the use of an electronic ID card/driver licence we increase access to these dbases there is (possibly) an increase in the danger that malcontents/nasty officialdom will access and misuse the information. It isnt a case of hacking, just requesting, and it does happen just in the same way as nasty emplpoyees lift stuff from their employers warehouse.

So what I am saying essentially is "the devil is in the detail", or at least in the architecture of the system. An "ID card" can be either protective of privacy or invasive of it.

From a purely personal point though, I would be uncomfortable with the gardaí adopting a "your papers please" attitude, as I think many people would. It isnt a privacy issue, but a liberty issue.

(I also dislike carrying my drivers licence when I am driving, although this is more because it is bloody awkward when you might be driving one of 8 different vehicles, and only 3 of them where I might bring a wallet.)

el tel

Since many years the police in the the UK have had this little black thing bearing the word 'Motorola' attached to their lapel. When they stop you they touch it and go "KKKrch" and say your name and vehicle registration number into it. Magically, within seconds they suddenly know all your personal and vehical particulars which are somehow teleported into their minds via a little earpiece they wear. It is so baffling in it's complication I think an attempt to provide drivers in Ireland with a chipped card seems like a much more sensible, cost-effective and workable idea...

prospect

Is this:

ambro25 wrote:

Extrapolating a bit, someone may hack into the Irish Passport database (which already exists, and everyone has a Passport) for the same data - so what's your point?

Not in direct contradiction with this?:

ambro25 wrote:

Oh, for sure. Nothing easier to tamper than an EEPROM "Sh*t! got another 2 points!"... "Oh well, no bother, that mate of the mate of my mate has a hacked card reader, he' ll zap them from the card for €50." I can see that one coming on clear as day.

You criticise my suggestion by pointing out how easily it could be hacked.
But when your suggestion is criticised, you claim that hacking is not relevant because current government databases are already hackable?

For the record, I am perfectly calm. :cool:

blastman

el tel wrote:

Since many years the police in the the UK have had this little black thing bearing the word 'Motorola' attached to their lapel. When they stop you they touch it and go "KKKrch" and say your name and vehicle registration number into it. Magically, within seconds they suddenly know all your personal and vehical particulars which are somehow teleported into their minds via a little earpiece they wear. It is so baffling in it's complication I think an attempt to provide drivers in Ireland with a chipped card seems like a much more sensible, cost-effective and workable idea...

Finally, someone said it!!

You people have heard of PULSE, right?

ambro25

prospect wrote:

Is this:

Extrapolating a bit, someone may hack into the Irish Passport database (which already exists, and everyone has a Passport) for the same data - so what's your point?

Not in direct contradiction with this?:

Oh, for sure. Nothing easier to tamper than an EEPROM "Sh*t! got another 2 points!"... "Oh well, no bother, that mate of the mate of my mate has a hacked card reader, he' ll zap them from the card for €50." I can see that one coming on clear as day.

No it isn't.

To begin with, and not to be pedant (as I know you're going to accuse me of that ), if you ever had anything to do with hacking an EEPROM locally (think: unlocking a mobile) vs hacking a database from a remote source (think: well... better not on a public forum ) , you would know that there is a world of difference.

That is why I was asking maidhc what his point was (about the National Vehicle License whatever database), and then made my Passport database-hacking analogy.

Next, my point (which again, I emphasize, was not targeted at your post - since it's the Minister who's suggested it, from the OP, I believe): so you're now carrying a credit-card -sized driver's license which has a CHIP on it, wherein some or all of your data is logged in (ID, print, DNA, points, how girlfriends, mistresses etc, etc).

So what? Is this going to make Irish drivers (I know, I know... we understand one another, right?!?) better drivers, better trained, better qualified? Will waiting times and queues for the test reduce? Will points be administered (yes, they still would have to be administered centrally, at point of contact/juncture with Court system) any faster/more accurately? Do Gardai today have any in-car equipment to even remotely improve accuracy (and therefore rate) of enforcement (even better: over-the-air DB query interfaces, as in the UK?)

No. So spends tax poayers' €s fixing the above first, then look to make nice fancy CHIP-based driver licenses.

prospect wrote:

You criticise my suggestion by pointing out how easily it could be hacked. But when your suggestion is criticised, you claim that hacking is not relevant because current government databases are already hackable?

I have not suggested that "government databases are already hackable". maidhc did. Quite on the contrary, I said that hacking government-type databases was an entirely different kettle of fish to issuing a personal credit card-sized driver license with a CHIP on it, and there would be no difference between attempting to hack a yet-to-exist "national driver licenses database" (for the cc-type CHIP-base licenses) and an already-existing passport database: in other words, it's a different problem (that of securing national databases against intrusions), and not quite the topic either.

For that matter, and IMHO, I don't believe such databases are hackable, unless you are an employee or know an employee, who has access to it to obtain whatever info is in there. There is a due process of Law for such incidences of unauthorized access and/or misuse of the data, under quite a few Statutes/Acts to boot.

maidhc

ambro25 wrote:

For that matter, and IMHO, I don't believe such databases are hackable, unless you are an employee or know an employee, who has access to it to obtain whatever info is in there.

Hacking a database is 99% social engineering. But a busybody can ask a county council who owns a particualtar car with a particular reg No, and if they believe that busybody is "reasonably" entited to it, they will get it. See the Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 1999 (Reg 11). I am intimately aware of the Data Protection Acts, and other such provisions, but they are of little assitance when the subject of the request is not even aware people are looking for information on them.

In any case I merely drew the comparison between databases and ID cards merely to illustrate that "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" is not always the best approach to take with systems dealing with personal identity in general.

ambro25

maidhc wrote:

In any case I merely drew the comparison between databases and ID cards merely to illustrate that "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" is not always the best approach to take with systems dealing with personal identity in general.

No, and agreed. The best approach is undoubtedly to use whatever is best-practice for designing and implementing such a scheme at whatever time it is being designed and implemented. Can't be fairer. And yet, and even then, there is no such thing as a totally unflawed/secure proposition. Else AVG, Symantex, Dr Norton etc. would have been out of business 20 years ago

But absence of regulation and/or 'registration' (in a database of whatever description from which cards (or passports ) are produced) is no panacea either, and could be said to be worse (witness reported/alleged problems in tracing non-IE cars/drivers when 'incidents' happen, for example - not that cc-type driving license for IE drivers would help that last remark, of course).

So, the least of two evils...

But, all the same, sinking €ms of tax payers funds into it (chip-enabled driving licenses) when the basics are not yet satisfactorily covered is a waste and a scandal in the waiting.

MontgomeryClift

No, wait! This is great! Everyone will have an electronic card license with their record of zero penalty points recorded on it so they can carry on speeding and driving dangerously in the knowledge that the imptence of the Gardaí and the public is circumscribed by expensive technology.

Martin Cullen is a piece of garbage. The people of Waterford have a lot to answer for there.