WPT/WSOP qualifier Key hand last night

loosecannon

won a cheapy qualifier to last night's Full Tilt Pick your own package satellite, start @ 2 am which is slightly to my hindrance, but i can usually still play ok when tired, 135 runners @ $200 which resulted in the first 2 getting the $12K packages + 3rd-5th got between $1600 and $600

thought i played well the whole way, tight and agressive and had built my stack up to the average with 25 left, went a bit card dead, but got my double up with 2 tables left and ended up getting to the final table with almost exactly average stack of 20k, there are 3 stacks shorter than me (around 10k) and two bully stacks @ 60k, blinds are 600-1200 with 125 ante

about 5th hand into the final table circa 5.30 am (have been playing this hand over and over in my head since). obv know that i played it badly but need advice on how to play these marginal hands

am on BB with 66 , bloke in mid position whose range is varied, have seem him raising small with very marginal hands, makes it 3600. all others fold, i'm pretty sure he's not on overpair, as he has been making bigger raises with premium hands, so i decide to Stop and Go and i flat call

flop QQ7, i push immediately for my 15k, (whether i was getting v tired i dunno, it was 5.30AM) is this Awful awful play? looking back on the hand i can't believe i made this play, didn't even think it through

i was talking to HJ at the time and i agree with his either push or fold pre-flop thoughts and my personal leaning was towards the fold, for some reason (must be tiredness/not taking enough time over the decision) i called

my real question is once i have made the call (whether that be a mistake or not), what is the correct play with that flop? if i check it, he will bet whether he is ahead of me or not and i will be almost certainly forced to lay it down no matter what the bet size

i would have been left with 15k behind if i check/fold the flop which although slightly short is playable

ps needless to say, he called my push immediately, with KQ! (isn't it nice to be in his position!) K on the turn kills my 6% chance! lol

advice appreciated and needed (as all MTT are ending between 8th and 27th at the mo! lol)

Ollieboy

Have to agree, calling preflop was a bad choice, as you had no idea where you are after the flop, so you would have to bluff or fold. His raise would indicated KQ or KJ or AJ or even AQ etc, I think he would have raised more with AK or large pair etc.

I think a push preflop would have got him to laydown the hand, but thats hindsight.

I think the proper play was to fold, with so much at stake, a pair of 66's is not big enough to call with, but is big enough to raise with, if you have position.

Iago

I think you have to fold preflop here, you're out of position and in a best case scenario he's holding two overcards. you're on the bubble and there are 3 stacks that are going to have to push in the next couple of hands regardless.

I folded TT twice OOP to a preflop raiser the other night when down to 11 players in a tournament where the top 9 where getting paid. Granted TT is a very playable hand but I was shortstacked, if I called I was committed to the hand and there where 4 players who had 5*BBs or less and I knew I could wait them out. (weak I know, but hey I play to make the money, and then win the tournament once I get down to the latter stages)

My opinion, fold the 66 and see what the SB and button bring in the next two hands.

When you've played the flop, he can't think you have a Q, if you did then surely you would check/raise, or small bet, not push for 15K into a pot of 7.2K. Your miles ahead of any hand he has without a Q.

If you have a 7 in your hand then the play makes sense, but if he's holding 88-AA your 7 is irrelevant, and with the stack sizes and prize struture the way it is, why would you be playing 7x in a raised pot anyway?

I don't think you can bluff him off this hand often enough for this to be profitable, so check/fold is your only option once you see the flop, but fold preflop is far better.

fuzzbox

Once you see a flop, check/call is the play (or check/push)

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

Once you see a flop, check/call is the play (or check/push)

The only problem with that is any two cards above a 7 have at least 9 outs. I think I prefer a push than a check call given its a sattelite.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

The only problem with that is any two cards above a 7 have at least 9 outs. I think I prefer a push than a check call given its a sattelite.

Meh - they only pay two spots, need to win chips.

fuzzbox

Ollieboy wrote:

I think the proper play was to fold, with so much at stake, a pair of 66's is not big enough to call with, but is big enough to raise with, if you have position.

If you raise, then you are going all-in. Thus position has no impact on this hand.

You negate the value of position by shoving your chips in.

Daithio

I don't mind the play too much. If he's prone to raising with a large range of hands I'll often take a flop with a hand like 66, see the flop and push if I think it's unlikely he's hit it. This isn't the worst flop in the world for that sort of play, in fact it's quite a good one. If he has AK AJ A10 KJ K10 etc he can't call. He didn't HAVE TO have KQ, just unlucky that he did imo. I prefer this play to pushing preflop, as you're only giving him 3 cards to hit, not 5, with his two overcards.

fuzzbox

Daithio wrote:

I don't mind the play too much. If he's prone to raising with a large range of hands I'll often take a flop with a hand like 66, see the flop and push if I think it's unlikely he's hit it. This isn't the worst flop in the world for that sort of play, in fact it's quite a good one. If he has AK AJ A10 KJ K10 etc he can't call. He didn't HAVE TO have KQ, just unlucky that he did imo. I prefer this play to pushing preflop, as you're only giving him 3 cards to hit, not 5, with his two overcards.

Given what you have just said - do you understand why pushing is bad, and check.calling is good?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Once you see a flop, check/call is the play (or check/push)

i would hate a check call here.
if the line went something like u check,he bets,u call,then you check the turn and if he checks behind then its not so bad.but if he bets the tunrn and the river then your really loosing alot of money that you dont need to.
i would push/fold this hand pre flop and in this case i would push seen as you have a read on him.it takes a very strong hand to call your push here.
remember this is a big sat and aggression can really work for you.its not like your making a move with nothing .
i dont like playing this hand post flop with more betting rounds at all and my aim would be to end the hand as quick as possible.

Ollieboy

fuzzbox wrote:

If you raise, then you are going all-in. Thus position has no impact on this hand.

You negate the value of position by shoving your chips in.

Sorry. I mean a pair of 66's in midposition is a good enough hand to raise with, but with a raise in front, its a hand to throw away, not a hand to be calling with at this stage.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

i would hate a check call here.
if the line went something like u check,he bets,u call,then you check the turn and if he checks behind then its not so bad.but if he bets the tunrn and the river then your really loosing alot of money that you dont need to.
i would push/fold this hand pre flop and in this case i would push seen as you have a read on him.it takes a very strong hand to call your push here.
remember this is a big sat and aggression can really work for you.its not like your making a move with nothing .
i dont like playing this hand post flop with more betting rounds at all and my aim would be to end the hand as quick as possible.

Gholi - you lose out on a lot of value by doing this.

Your hand figures to be the best hand. If you push - then he calls you with any hand that is better than yours, and folds all those hands that he might bluff with.

You dont need aggression to win this hand, you can win at a showdown, by having the best hand most often.

If you had 9T here, then pushing would be fine, as you are hoping he folds (and you are behind hands like AJ and AK and KT and KJ etc).
With 66 its totally different.

fuzzbox

btw - I say check/call because I figure he will push most hands (like AK) when I check.

If he doesnt then I check/push.
If he checks, then I figure I need to hit a 6.

ocallagh

fuzzbox wrote:

Given what you have just said - do you understand why pushing is bad, and check.calling is good?

Do you mean check/call to river?

When your opponent holds a pocket pair which beats your 66 you'll be sick. so, to take into account the times he has 88, 99 TT: I think check/call the flop and push the turn

fuzzbox

ocallagh wrote:

this is good except for when your opponent holds a pocket pair which beats your 66. so, to take into account the times he has 88, 99 TT.

I think check/call the flop and push the turn

Do you really believe that he folds any of those hands to a push?

ocallagh

fuzzbox wrote:

Do you really believe that he folds any of those hands to a push?

Sometimes they will fold 88 or 99 and that's good enough for me! The reason I let them see a free card instead of check/call/push on the flop is to add weight to my hand.

ps: back to op, I don't think I would flat call with 66 in the first place. Raisers range is too wide here.. and you're not getting odds for set value. Not many flops will help you. As Daithio said QQ7 is not a bad flop for you and you were unlucky he had the Q..

If the flop was 442 how would you progress? You'd still be worried about an OP - TT etc. I fold 66 here.. or if I know the player (and more importantly they know I'm not a donkey(rare as it is)) I re-raise to 15k, check the 'call any' box and put the kettle on.