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ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 10:58am #1

I've played maybe two hands in an hour. Dont know anyone at the table. I've 3500 out of my 4000 starting stack left behind.

Blinds at 75/150 I look down at AQo on the button. 2 limpers. I raise to 600. BB calls and the two limpers fold.

Flop is TTQ. BB checks. I bet 1200. BB calls. Turn is another ten. BB pushes.

And I

5starpool · 22-03-2006 11:04am

I think I am going bust if necessary on this hand. Personally I think a likely holding for BB is a decent PP. If he has a T then good luck to him, I will be calling here every time. There are very few ways you are behind, plenty of ways you are ahead, and some ways you are tieing with outs (your A).

Personally I think he is betting the obvious scare card.

Edit: I assume this ended one of 2 ways.

1. You called and he had T or higher KK/AA (amazed he wouldn't reraise preflop from BB with 2 limpers here though as well as a PFR)
2. You didn't call, sure he muct have had you beat and he showed a worse hand than yours.

fuzzbox · 22-03-2006 11:04am

call. Sucks if he has the T or KK or AA.

jbravado · 22-03-2006 12:26pm

Definate call imo-although its possible that he has a ten I dont think he would play it like this. If he does have it then so be it,this hand plays itself i think.

jem · 22-03-2006 12:41pm

u have to call

Iceman78 · 22-03-2006 12:46pm

Definite Call for me. I would be surprised if he played a 10 that way considering he could not be beat after turn and he went all in. Im guessing that he has med pocket pair and he puts you on AK or AJ and is hoping to scare you off now. Dont believe he could have played AA or KK this way but it depends on the opponent.

loosecannon · 22-03-2006 12:54pm

i'm afraid that the only way i can possibly lay down this hand is if he accidentally shows me the 10 or KK/AA!

and i'm guessing because it was posted he showed you one of the three! i'm gonna guess the 10!

Hectorjelly · 22-03-2006 3:13pm

I dont think this is a definite call. I really doubt he is using the T as a scare card, no one would try and represent quads. I think there is only a small chance he is bluffing, a big chance he has a queen too, and a chance he has a bigger pair. He can see the queen on the board as well as you can so I think its unlikely he is pushing with worse. You are really calling to split the pot.

I would probably call this given the size of the pot but I would be swayed by my image of the player. Also I hate the bet on the flop.

fixer · 22-03-2006 3:16pm

he pushed the turn with AK and hit on the river.

close?

ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 3:36pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

Also I hate the bet on the flop.

Can you elaborate on this?

Hectorjelly · 22-03-2006 3:41pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Can you elaborate on this?

Because you build the pot with a bad hand, it tells your opponent what you have (ie that you dont have a ten) and there is no need to price out any draws. When flopping something like this unless you are against a total moron your objective should be to get to a showdown cheap, losing the least against a ten and letting underpairs put a bit of money in. AA on this board is not great, AQ is actually quite bad as its what your opponent will think you have (provided you have a legitamate hand)

ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 3:51pm

Anyhoo, here's how the hand turned out. I called and went busto. He had pocket Kings.

I'm suprised that everyone here except HJ has put this down as an easy call. Looking back at this hand, this guy was practically telling me that he had KK/AA.

I had played fcuk all hands. He then cold calls my raise. For him to call my 1st bet for quite sometime, he's sitting on a biggy. There's no need for him to reraise here. It's heads up and he has a monster. I would often cold call in his spot even though I'm OOP.

Flop - He check calls. What can he possibly be calling with here? His only possibly holdings are AQ/KQ, a highly unlikely QJ, JT-AT and QQ+. There is no way he is ever playing AK here. I've been passive preflop, now I'm betting preflop and on the flop. He knows I have a hand, so for him to call he must have one as well.

Turn he pushes. The only reason I called here was the pot size. I couldnt be sure he had KK/AA or Tx. Best case scenario, I think I'm looking at a split pot here.

In hindsight, if i'd sat back and thought about the hand a little longer, I'd probably have layed it down. Wouldnt really have been difficult and I've made much better laydowns before.

Fcuking annoying though.

ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 3:54pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

Because you build the pot with a bad hand, it tells your opponent what you have (ie that you dont have a ten) and there is no need to price out any draws. When flopping something like this unless you are against a total moron your objective should be to get to a showdown cheap, losing the least against a ten and letting underpairs put a bit of money in. AA on this board is not great, AQ is actually quite bad as its what your opponent will think you have (provided you have a legitamate hand)

OK, I see where you're coming from. I'm losing a big pot against a hand I'm behind and winning a small one when I'm ahead.

So is a better line on a board with this texture check-calling to the river?

fuzzbox · 22-03-2006 3:56pm

The pot is far to big to lay down here. Laying down sucks.

Checking the flop doesnt suck

.

Why bet so much on the flop?
Pot is 1500 and you bet 1200 .....

fuzzbox · 22-03-2006 3:56pm

Checking flop - then call turn, and if he pushes anywhere, you can get away cheap.

You prolly have to call river too, hopefully he "prices you in".

5starpool · 22-03-2006 3:58pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I had played fcuk all hands. He then cold calls my raise. For him to call my 1st bet for quite sometime, he's sitting on a biggy. There's no need for him to reraise here. It's heads up and he has a monster. I would often cold call in his spot even though I'm OOP.

Would you have cold called a raise to 600 OOP when there were 2 limpers who had already put 150 into the pot still to act, especially after he increased the pot odds for them to call? Maybe he likes the possibility of 4 way pot with KK. I know I don't.

I think he played it badly preflop.

Hectorjelly · 22-03-2006 4:03pm

5starpool wrote:

Would you have cold called a raise to 600 OOP when there were 2 limpers who had already put 150 into the pot still to act, especially after he increased the pot odds for them to call? Maybe he likes the possibility of 4 way pot with KK. I know I don't.

I think he played it badly preflop.

I like how he played it once he limped, a reraise there and do you think he wins any money from AQ?

Iceman78 · 22-03-2006 4:03pm

It all depends on your opponent and what standard you feel he is at. A lot of people that i have played against especially online would push here with any small pair as your bet on flop just looks like a continuation bet.

You were unlucky to be caught by someone holding KK but if i had no reads on the player i may lay down or if i thought he was a good enough player who would not throw away his chips easily.

ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 4:08pm

5starpool wrote:

Would you have cold called a raise to 600 OOP when there were 2 limpers who had already put 150 into the pot still to act, especially after he increased the pot odds for them to call? Maybe he likes the possibility of 4 way pot with KK. I know I don't.

I think he played it badly preflop.

There had been lots of limp-folding taking place.

Questionable maybe but I like it.

kippy · 22-03-2006 4:09pm

Hey, Its a game of chance,
Most people would have called as the odds of him having a better hand than you were low.....
He had the luck on his side.
Even such a "skillful" game as Poker luck plays a massive massive part.

Frankly I dont think over analysing this would help anyone out.

Kippy

5starpool · 22-03-2006 4:10pm

some standard of players then!!!

I take it this was in the SE on Tues night? If it was Fitz Mon night I am surprised there would have been lots of limp/fold action. Usually much harder to shake from a pot that that.

Hectorjelly · 22-03-2006 4:10pm

ianmc38 wrote:

OK, I see where you're coming from. I'm losing a big pot against a hand I'm behind and winning a small one when I'm ahead.

So is a better line on a board with this texture check-calling to the river?

Check behind on flop, Check or call turn. If he pushes river then you have a decision to make, but at least you induce the possibility of a bluff. Also in this hand its likely you wouldnt of had to call a push, as the check on flop then flat call turn makes it look like you have a ten, so he will be worried with his KK. See how its a good line!

Hectorjelly · 22-03-2006 4:12pm

kippy wrote:

Hey, Its a game of chance,
Most people would have called as the odds of him having a better hand than you were low.....
He had the luck on his side.
Even such a "skillful" game as Poker luck plays a massive massive part.

Frankly I dont think over analysing this would help anyone out.

Kippy

Post of the year

ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 4:19pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Checking flop - then call turn, and if he pushes anywhere, you can get away cheap.

You prolly have to call river too, hopefully he "prices you in".

Rush of blood? It was one of those stupid bets that I decided to throw out without any consideration of stack, pot size, villains holdings etc.

Ridiculous overbet, that will win the pot when I'm ahead and wont when I'm behind. Hmmm.

Hindsight is 20:20 as they'd say.

ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 4:20pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

Check behind on flop, Check or call turn. If he pushes river then you have a decision to make, but at least you induce the possibility of a bluff. Also in this hand its likely you wouldnt of had to call a push, as the check on flop then flat call turn makes it look like you have a ten, so he will be worried with his KK. See how its a good line!

Yes, because now he can't push the river and I get out of jail free. Advice appreciated!

ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 4:22pm

kippy wrote:

Hey, Its a game of chance,
Most people would have called as the odds of him having a better hand than you were low.....
He had the luck on his side.
Even such a "skillful" game as Poker luck plays a massive massive part.

Frankly I dont think over analysing this would help anyone out.

Kippy

LOL

RoundTower · 22-03-2006 4:40pm

I would have played the hand the same way. I bet the flop because I expect to be ahead, I might get a call from something like 88 or KQ, and because I would also bet here with AK/AT/99 almost all of the time.

5starpool · 22-03-2006 4:49pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

I like how he played it once he limped, a reraise there and do you think he wins any money from AQ?

He had not limped. He was the BB and there were still 2 limpers to act. I know that you have to mix things up the with big hands like KK, but with 2 limpers still to act after you flat calling a raise, and with the first guy having to pay an extra 450 into a pot that already contains 1575, and the second guy potentially getting better odds to call again!!

I still don't like it. I agree that the way it worked out was perfect for him as it totally disguised the strength of his hand, but if those limpers had called? Doesn't play so well then most times.

Hectorjelly · 22-03-2006 4:57pm

5starpool wrote:

He had not limped. He was the BB and there were still 2 limpers to act. I know that you have to mix things up the with big hands like KK, but with 2 limpers still to act after you flat calling a raise, and with the first guy having to pay an extra 450 into a pot that already contains 1575, and the second guy potentially getting better odds to call again!!

I still don't like it. I agree that the way it worked out was perfect for him as it totally disguised the strength of his hand, but if those limpers had called? Doesn't play so well then most times.

Your right I thought he had limped. The problem with reraising is that its too strong, so I think flat calling is perfectly fine. If the limpers call then you get to play a big pot out of position with perfect stacks for chk raising all in on non ace boards. Or fold if theres too much action. Theres nothing wrong with reraising but this gives you a much better chance of winning a big pot. If ian is a moron or the stacks were different then reraising would be almost mandatory.

ianmc38 · 22-03-2006 5:07pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

If ian is a moron or the stacks were different then reraising would be almost mandatory.

I'm definitely a moron!

5starpool · 22-03-2006 5:08pm

I think the fear of letting in too many players on these sort of hands is something that sometimes causes me to lose some value in these pots.

I suppose my action might well change from my default depending on what the table was playing like. Lots of limp/folders=lovely table and the guy with KK may have been willing I guess to trade position in multiway pot to outplay these particular opps if they did call (assuming no ace dropped).

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