Warning graphic photos!!!

Dave Joyce

Before anyone opens this link, its geared towards those INTERESTED in weapons based arts and it contains very graphic photos. The reason I've posted it is in responce to a debate on knives during which the idea that slashing is not as bad as stabbing was put forward. I think this will illustrate that is not always the case.

http://www.jungletraining.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3159

Also thought I'd post this in the "only in America heading". Mind you, in relation to blades and not guns, with some of the recent findings in Britain and some of the reports from teachers in Ireland regarding the carrying of blades in schools, maybe we're not THAT far away,

http://www.atienzakali.com/Forum_new/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=365

Baggio...

Very nasty indeed, but I think it's very important to show images of that nature. Just shows you what you could be facing in the street if you underestimate some crazy scummer with a blade. Might get people thinking how difficult it really is to disarm a committed attacker with a knife.

Cheers,

Baggio.

dlofnep

Unlucky reality check for him.

Colm_OReilly

Dave has given plenty of warning on this thread, so if you view them and are offended it's your own fault.

memphis

Oh man, dispite the warning i wasn't geared up for that. Hell, that is nasty.

Roper

I take it there might be some of that aimed at me Dave;)

I had a problem with the last thread as it was totally out of context, it was about military killing, which is nothing to do with self defence. This is applicable so I've no prob, see?

Anyway, on topic,
That's a fine example of the realities of getting in an altercation with a blade, and it obviously highlights the necessity of training properly. As a general question, how do you think the various knife defence disciplines being taught out there would fair against a vicious slasher like that?
I think it was scuttery at one of the boards meets who said something quite enlightening to me. He was introducing the stick to us and he said for all the skills and techniques, most stick fights are going to be won by a guy just committing and swinging down on to you. Same for a knife?

Dave Joyce

Roper buddy, you're getting paranoid (hah, don't think we've heard THAT one before) and it wasn't aimed at you, but feck ya, I suppose I have to say who now!! And I do not mean it as a slight/insult but it was Maeve who said the piece about slashes as opposed to stab wounds. Feck ya Roper, sorry Maeve:D

Believe it or not but I think it was a very poor attack (thank God), as I wouldn't say trained, in that if the scum's intension was to kill the guy, it failed badly although he inflicted a lot of damage. However, to answer your question I think an awful lot of systems are totally unprepared for the kind of violence thats involved in a bladed attack let alone HOW they prepare for that type of situation. There are a lot of responces to the initial attack (if you can EVEN handle that and I don't mean to sound patronising, just honest) which are deadly/terrible and there are never addressed in training, from reflexive, responsive to trained etc. Some of these responses take a LONG time to get out of your system (I mean your own, not the one you're training in!!) and a lot of disciplines NEVER address this.

most stick fights are going to be won by a guy just committing and swinging down on to you. Same for a knife?

Really good question my friend and I can only give you MY own humble opinion. Depends on the scenario but if its empty hand V bladed attack with only some training, then I would say Yes for definate. With a good bit of training MAYBE you can survive with a good deal of injury. With a helluva lot of training and very good luck etc against a poorly educated (I hesitate to use the word trained/skilled) scumbag, then the odds are possibly in your favour. With an equaliser/blade and again a lot of good luck, you have a 50/50 chance depending on the skill level of your attacker and a (depressing one however) point worth noting is that not ALL scum know feck all about using a knife, some them can be very skillful if thats the correct word to use about the wastards. Most important thing is that there are NO certainties and that any skill in blade work is not attained within a short amount of training, but lots of time/training/knowledge. Tuhon Tom Kier (and he is one of the MOST skillful blade guys I have EVER seen) has often said because he has seen first hand what a knife can do, he would be very wary of going up against even a young teenager with a blade.

MaeveD

Hiya Dave, no need to say sorry

Nasty..... but I still stick by what I said... he looked very much alive to me.. if the guy who slashed him had stabbed him instead he'd probably be dead.

He's damn lucky he had a good layer of body fat.. but if he took on someone with a knife like it said... he was crazy!!!

Degsy

As i was saying the last time this topic came up,if you get slashed open with a blade you're going to lose your bottle and forget yourt training,THEN you're going to think of a way to get your arse out of there.Most people be they trained martial artists or not lack the moral fibre for toe to toe pugilism and a brief encounter with somebody who has a blade and is willing to use it might just show you how lacking you really are.DONT mess with knives unless you'e armed!

FiannaGym.com

At the next boards meet, someone should bring chalk to train knife attacks.

Peace

dent

Dave Joyce wrote:

The reason I've posted it is in responce to a debate on knives during which the idea that slashing is not as bad as stabbing was put forward.

The pics are very nasty. Depending on the location both slashing and stabbing are equally nasty. A slash across the throat is likely to be just as lethal as a stab. A slash to the arm might cut an artery whereas a stab might not. However a stab can hit the vital organs. Either way any knife wound can be potentially lethal.

Did plenty of weapons work in Jujutsu. From disarming people with swords to knifes. When sparring with the rubber knifes you are lucky to disarm somone 1/20 times without being stabbed and thats when you know someone is trying to stab you.

If you cannot escape someone with a blade I guess you should try and equalise the situation. Pick up some broken glass, smash a bottle, grab a chair etc. People generally think twice about attacking you if they feel they might get hurt in the process.

scuttery1

Best advise I've been given for knife defense, working in descending order of merit:
A. run
B.run
C. throw stuff
D. use stuff
E. use our "art"
Coolest t-shirt "pearl of wisdom" spotted at the WEKAF world championships in '02 "winners drip, losers gush!"



John Hoey

Musashi

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2655

Still, knife wounds are never a good sign!

Quillo

The Romans, who knew a bit about such things, fought with a short sword (gladius) about the same size as large Bowie knife:

"They [the legionaries] were likewise taught not to cut but to thrust with their swords. For the Romans not only made a jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, but always found them an easy conquest. A stroke with the edges, though made with ever so much force, seldom kills, as the vital parts of the body are defended both by the bones and armor. On the contrary, a stab, though it penetrates but two inches, is generally fatal...."
From: Flavius Vegetius Renatus, De Re Militaris (I.12)

And armour in those times was about as protective as a good modern leather jacket.

Ballisong

"The Romans, who knew a bit about such things, fought with a short sword (gladius) about the same size as large Bowie knife:

"They [the legionaries] were likewise taught not to cut but to thrust with their swords. For the Romans not only made a jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, but always found them an easy conquest. A stroke with the edges, though made with ever so much force, seldom kills, as the vital parts of the body are defended both by the bones and armor. On the contrary, a stab, though it penetrates but two inches, is generally fatal...."
From: Flavius Vegetius Renatus, De Re Militaris (I.12)

And amour in those times was about as protective as a good modern leather jacket."

It's true that a thrust will penetrate more than a slash but depending on the target a slash can be extremely effective, I'd say a slash to the carotid is just as bad as a thrust, wouldn't you , plus with a thrust you have to be far more accurate than with a slash, to hit your target. As for your bones protecting you, when living your bones have a similar consistency to a bar of soap, so imagine how much protection they offer, leather jackets, even heavy ones ain't much better.

This is a clip containing some cuts on meat, as well as other stuff, look closely at how deep the slashes cut, that kind of slash to your carotid abdomen or femoral would be fatal without immediate medical attention.

http://sayoc.com/vidclips/20040203trailer.wmv

Also you'll notice that the meat was wrapped in plastic to simulate skin and also had 5 layers of t-shirt around it and it still cut pretty deep.

Quillo

No doubt a slash can be fatal.

And a slash cut requires only a very small blade - which makes the knife both easier to conceal and harder to see to defend against.

However, if you look at military knives and military knife fighting, the emphasis is on stabbing, presumably for good reason.

Millionaire

thats a great stick fight in that Sayoc Kali thing.

Its looks not to far off going for real!! and rough too!!!

Great Stuff!!!

Dave Joyce

Hey Gerry, you should see the full fights on the actual DVD!! Bear in mind these guys all train in Sayoc Kali (although they had an open invitation for people wishing to fight), so you can imagine:D what it would've been like if they weren't training partners etc They also fought from a number of different situations, both guys far apart, both lying on their back etc

Ballisong

"However, if you look at military knives and military knife fighting, the emphasis is on stabbing, presumably for good reason."

Yes, with all the gear that they have to wear it is very hard to get a slash to a vital target so they tend to prefer thrusts. I'm not saying thrusts aren't effective, they are but require much more accuracy to be effective.

Millionaire

I was amazed and horrified by the damaged done by a slash to a bit of beef as per the sayoc footage.

defo puts a spin on the dangers of a knife attack.