Musical Chairs

NickyOD

I made a ruling at the club this week about changing seats in cash games. I came across this problem in Vienna which really pissed me off where several players kept changing their seating position. One player did it 4 times in the space of a half hour.

Before I started managing the club players were allowed to move to a different seat. Some players believed it would change their luck, but I believed others were moving because toa new seat because they believed it would be a more profitable position at the table.

So on one occasion this week one bad player has just 2 outered a guy for a big pot 2 hands in a row. I'm dealing the table and the player on my right all of a sudden wants to move to a newly opened seat beside this player. I made a decision that I wasn't going to allow it. I don't mind a player busting out and returning to the table to a different seat but while he has chips on the table I don't think it should be allowed unless there is a very good reason for it. Last night another player asked to move seating positions and I know he genuinely wasn't taking the piss but I can't make one rule for one player and break it for another.

I consider it bad etiquette to change your seating posisition in a cash game while you have chips on the table so in order to avoid future nights of musical chairs I'm going to try and have it written in the the clubs rules that it is not allowed.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Am I going too far?

G-Knome

Well done, I think you were spot on with your ruling.

Ollieboy

I would have thought this was a standard rule in poker already. I've never heard of players moving seats in a cash game before.

I think your right to make the rule and if I was in a game and people were allow to move around, I would tell them there cowboys (casino) and get up and leave the table. Sure people would move seat to save on blinds... maddness

kinaldo

maybe have an exception to the rule for players stuck in seats 1and 10

Ollieboy

just thinking about this, but there's nothing stopping a player moving around a cash table online, so maybe you can move around?

Interesting....

Imposter

You have to be able to change position should you want to!
If you feel there is a seat at the table that gives you a bigger advantage over one or more players there then changing seats makes a lot of sense.

If someone changes 4 times in half an hour then that means nothing. The only thing is you need rules on what happens when 2 or more players want to move to the same seat.

You should not be able to avoid the blinds. Perhaps make a ruling that a player must spend at least one round of the table in the seat before they can change (possibly unless they are new to the table).

Over here the players at the table have preference on any open seats and someone joining the table must then take whatever seats are available after this.

ianmc38

People change seats in the Sporting Emporium every night. Mostly its done as they feel they can change their luck. I often do it to gain a positional advantage at the table as well as when I'm card dead. I dont have any problem with it.

pokypoky

I think a player should be allowed change seats during a cash game, after all choosing the right table and seat is all part of a good cash game player's game. Just limit the amount of times a player can do it, and every time he or she does do it they have to pay the big blind for the first hand in their new position.

kickintheteeth

happens in the fitz all the time, by regulars mostly.
i think thee biggest reason for doing it in the fitz though, is that some seats are in the middle of the wlkway, and ur always getting bumped or asked to move, so its just done to get a quiet seat!

bohsman

Its a cash game, of course you can move around.

cardshark202

This is ridiculous, you can't stop people changing seats. Next you will stop the gamblers from being able to change deck. Anyway, this ruling must be repealed IMO because it doesn't make much sense. There's both a strategic reason to change seats as well as a 'gambly luck' reason.

Daithio

Yeah I don't see a problem with it.

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote:

I would have thought this was a standard rule in poker already. I've never heard of players moving seats in a cash game before.

I think your right to make the rule and if I was in a game and people were allow to move around, I would tell them there cowboys (casino) and get up and leave the table. Sure people would move seat to save on blinds... maddness

Have you ever played in a cash game? (serious question).

ianmc38

Ollieboy wrote:

Sure people would move seat to save on blinds... maddness

Those €2 BBs are a killer alright.

Scotty #

I agree with Nicky. Its unethical and should not be allowed. Yes a player can move seats but he has to cash out and buy back in later under normal rules (half hour or whatever) If there's no set ruling on this then its going to abused. Brunson once said if he had position all night he'd win every hand.....bet he'd love to play at these tables.

cardshark202

Scotty # wrote:

I agree with Nicky. Its unethical and should not be allowed. Yes a player can move seats but he has to cash out and buy back in later under normal rules (half hour or whatever) If there's no set ruling on this then its going to abused. Brunson once said if he had position all night he'd win every hand.....bet he'd love to play at these tables.

RoundTower wrote:

Have you ever played in a cash game? (serious question).

.

Drakar

Scotty # wrote:

I agree with Nicky. Its unethical and should not be allowed. Yes a player can move seats but he has to cash out and buy back in later under normal rules (half hour or whatever) If there's no set ruling on this then its going to abused. Brunson once said if he had position all night he'd win every hand.....bet he'd love to play at these tables.

I'm assuming if they move seats, regardless of where they sit they have to pay the BB like it happens online (ie they are essentially leaving the table and rejoining). I would definately have a problem with people moving to avoid the blinds, but provided this isn't the case I don't have a problem if they are moving to get position on someone.

DeVore

I would make the rule that the blinds must pass the player at least once before they can move again. This has nothing to do with making them pay the blinds but it puts a natural timer on the number of moves they can make in a given period.

DeV.

5starpool

FH would be distraught if the Fitz ever stopped you moving seats.

I very much doubt anyone would do it to skip blinds, you can just leave the table every time they come round if you want to do that, but I would imagine that would bring a warning if it became apparant that someone kept doing it.

I see nothing wrong with this, whether it is to change from a 'bad luck' seat or to get positional advantage. I very rarely do it, unless if I was in seat 1/9 I might.

I think it is crazy to ban it.

fixer

no live cash games in Ireland that I've played in have new players posting a blind out of turn. Players are welcome to move seats.

Nicky, what is the issue with it? Is it creating a problem, slowing the game down? you want the eplayers to be comfortable so they stick around your card room. Sure, you may be the only game in town right now, but if people are playing there begrudgingly and a new card room opens, you'll lose a lot of players.

So, why do you care if someone changes seats?

Personally, I hate the "must move" system at most of the bigger rooms with multiple tables going. I prefer to be able to choose my table based on the competition there.

Ollieboy

RoundTower wrote:

Have you ever played in a cash game? (serious question).

Yes. Mostly in the states, not here. I've never seen someone get up and move seats......


Move tables yes.

Did you read this!

"just thinking about this, but there's nothing stopping a player moving around a cash table online, so maybe you can move around?"

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

Those €2 BBs are a killer alright.

I was thinking of higher limits, like 50/100 etc.

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote:

Yes. Mostly in the states, not here. I've never seen someone get up and move seats......


Move tables yes.

Did you read this!

"just thinking about this, but there's nothing stopping a player moving around a cash table online, so maybe you can move around?"

I read that but I thought you'd got it backwards. Anywhere I've played online you can't move seats. Yes, you can get up and sit down again, but only if there is no waiting list.

Also I thought moving seats was a bigger deal in the US than it is here. Because they play limit poker I think they may force you to pay the blinds again if you move, or wait until they come to you.

Nicky -- I can't see that your rule would improve the game at all. I never see players complain about other players moving seats, but you will definitely have people moaning when they are not allowed to move. Maybe Dev has a good idea in stopping someone from moving every 3 hands. Or force them to post or sit out (I assume new players don't post in your room). But IMO even that won't be necessary.

Scotty #

cardshark202 wrote:

Have you ever played in a cash game?

Yea, but not that many to be honest. I didn't think this was as acceptable as it seems to be. I suppose if it's the same rule for all then its fair and if someone I have a favorable position on moves seat then I can just move myself back in to a favorable position again. Musical chairs is right.

Goodluck2me

for someone to move to skip the blinds they would have to move every 8 hands on a 10 handed game, as they couldnt possibly move 10 places. as they moe into the blinds. it would never happen. on a seriosu table with a decent dealer speed-wise they would do a round in 15 mins. it would be so blatently obvious and uncomfortable noone would bother....

NickyOD

Although this is a 1/2 game there tends to be about twice as much money on the table as you would find on a holdem table in the fitz but I don't see what difference the size of the blinds make to the ruling. I've never seen anyone moving in order to avoid the blinds. A few times when people moved seats in our game, it was to sit beside a bad player with a lot of chips so they could get involved in more pots with this player. On one occasion the "bad" player was visibly annoyed and offended by this and left the game shortly afterwards because he felt he was being made a target. He wasn't stupid by any means and a very nice man, just not a great card player. This sort of rude behaviour is mainly what I don't want to see. I would never ever ever move seats in this way as a player as I think it is extremely bad etiquette. The other issue is slowing down the game if we are playing musical chairs all night.

I like the idea of allowing seats 1 and 10 to move because of their impaired view but if players are just taking the piss moving seats without a genuine reason, then I don't see why it should be allowed.

RoundTower

Most people move hoping to find a lucky seat.

If you do move because you want to sit beside a bad player I think that's fine too, but if it's clear that's what you're doing, that's just rude. Probably the player doing the moving here isn't any better.

Hectorjelly

Live poker already has so many disadvantages than online, I dont see the need to add another one. I often move seats if I think its sufficently worthwhile. Muttering something about a lucky seat can save someones embaressment.

Imposter

NickyOD wrote:

A few times when people moved seats in our game, it was to sit beside a bad player with a lot of chips so they could get involved in more pots with this player. On one occasion the "bad" player was visibly annoyed and offended by this and left the game shortly afterwards because he felt he was being made a target. He wasn't stupid by any means and a very nice man, just not a great card player. This sort of rude behaviour is mainly what I don't want to see. I would never ever ever move seats in this way as a player as I think it is extremely bad etiquette.

I don't see why it's bad etiquette or rude! The game is played for money. People look to have and to get any advantage they can. Next you'll be banning check-raising because it's unfair to be deceptive! When I sit in a live game I try to sit in the seat where I think I have the best advantage over the other players. As players come and go that position may change and if possible I will move.

If a player gets upset by this that's ok too. It's their money they can do as they want.

The other issue is slowing down the game if we are playing musical chairs all night.

HOw long does it really take! By the time the cards are shuffled they should be in their new seat.

I like the idea of allowing seats 1 and 10 to move because of their impaired view but if players are just taking the piss moving seats without a genuine reason, then I don't see why it should be allowed.

Who defines what a genuine reason is? Seats 1 and 10 are great - you can see all the players bar seat 1/10.

NickyOD

Ok fair enough. I'm not going to enforce this as a rule in future unless I feel the game is being disrupted because of it. I do feel anooyed though when one of my customers leaves the game because people are going out of their way to change seats and have position on him, without being in any way subtle about it.

fixer

Nicky, it's a good thing for a card room manager to take that level of interest. I'd suggest a call to that player, or a quiet word another night to explain that you saw his annoyance, but that it's just part of the game. Sooth his ruffled feathers, or maybe just find out he was ready to go home anyway.