Community Welfare rent alowance?

smeggle

Not sure if this is the right place for this, so my apoligies in advance and could it be moved to the relevant area if wrong.

I've just got home after a fairly long support session with a friend of mine, who was particularly upset in relation to a letter recieved from the Department of Community of Health. This dept. deals with rent allowance for those in reciept of benefits.

A few weeks ago, my friend was advised by his land lord that the rent had to be increased. Said friend has resided at the residence now for some three to four years and has quite an amicable relationship with his landlord. I, myself also know the landlord and can vouch that he is a very nice guy and is not being vindictive in anyway.

Anyway, said friend informed the local welfare officer and filled out the neccessary forms indicating the 20euro increase from 100euro to 120euro.

He recieved a letter today, informing him that the increase has been allowed upto the maximum of 100euro, the standard allowance for a single person. (He allready realised he would need to find the remainder and had no problem with this).

However, the letter stated that this was only authorised for an interim period and that during that time he would either have to find a way to pay the extra or find cheaper accomadation. The latter is a total no go as we live in a tourist area and any accomadation is snapped up like hot cakes at this time of year.

On top of that, it would be virtually impossible to find accomadation at a cheaper rate and certainly not by moving into the local town where rents are extortive to say the least.

I'm a bit stuck on how to help him or advice him and thought I'd ask here. My thoughts are that the welfare cannot set extra criteria on an allowance just because a person is now having to claim the maximum allowed. (Previously they had been paying 82euro allowance against the 100euro rent - friend had to find the extra 18euro).

I'm going to be checking with citizens advice and the local td on this as well but is there a rule that says if a person ends up claiming the maximum rent allowance that they should then have to find cheaper accomadation? Or is this a case of the welfare office chancing it and relying on my friends niavety?

My friend doesn't handle stress very well at the best of times and I've had a hell of an afternoon/early evening with him trying to calm him down. I've had to get home myself and have left other friends looking after him as you can imagine he's quite upset about it all.

Any help or pointers in the right direction for info would be a great help. I've looked over the welfare services site but that just gives basic allowance info and little other information.

Once again, my apoligies if this is in the wrong place

Thanks

Victor

There are maximum limits to the rent the recipient is allowed pay and I suspect your friend just exceeds these levels.

smeggle

Thanks for the answer Victor appreciated it.

How do you mean?

'There are maximum limits to the rent the recipient is allowed pay'

You mean there are alsolimits on what a rent allowance recipient is allowed to pay as well?

What I need to find out though is wether the welfare officer has the right to tell someone to find cheaper accomadation just because they are now claiming the maximum allowed rent allowance? Is there a rule saying this is the case? Or is that they are approaching the criterior from two different ways?

Thanks again for your help

FranknFurter

In my experience, you are better off in 90% of cases, bypassing the "community welfare officers" entirely, I have yet to meet a single one professionally whom I could say is a nice human being.

If you are in Dublin, get in touch with Clondalkin Citzens Information Center as they have an "in-house" (for the moment), highly experienced Disability Advocate. She will take on your case and / or point you in the direction of the right person to contact.

Hope that helps,

B

aare

Unfortunately Smeggle, the maximum rent is the maximum YOU are allowed to pay, not the maximum amount they pay you.

Sadly, these amounts are no longer remotely realistic.

If the maximum rent is €100, the maximum they pay you is €82.

If the maximum they pay you is €100 then the maximum you can pay is just under €115

So, €120 pw exceeds the maximum by either €20 or €5 (I can't figure out which from your post, but I suspect it is €20), which puts your friend into the realm of "discretionary payment", which is a nightmare no-one should ever have to go through. It creates a situation where, in far too many cases, the maximum rent is paid on paper, and the rest changes hands in the black economy. People have no choice because the don't want to be homeless, landlords have no choice because they are ordinary people and cannot afford to operate as charities.

If the maximum they pay you is €100, and the maximum rent is €115 pw then I am afraid they cannot pay him less than €100, though they may be under obligation to warn him that he should try to seek cheaper accomodation as his weekly contribution to the rent now exceeds what it should be (just over €13 pw), which does not leave him the amount the state determines to be adequate to his needs (which may well be better met by keeping a roof over his head *rolling eyes*)...

It also suggests that he has been underpaid by €5 pw for some considerable time which should be corrected and backpaid

HOWEVER, the Local Councils (who are now right on the edge of being responsible for paying rent allowances) have a far broader brief, under law, to cope with homelessness. The first thing your friend should do is go to the local council housing department and explain that the community welfare officer is forcing him to become homeless (which he is) and that it is far easier to prevent the problem than to fix it. They may well be able to solve the problem in some way.

Secondly, if your friend is in receipt of disability allowance or benefit he is effectively exempt from the rent allowance limits, and should immediately write a polite letter to the chief CWO pointing out the error.

If that doesn't work he should go to the local council and explain that the Community Welfare Officer is forcing him to become homeless by ignoring the law that exempts recipients of disability benefit or allowance from rent allowance limits. He should also write, in the same vein, to local TDs and the Minister for Social Welfare, he should also seek assistance from "Threshhold"...

Tell him "Good Luck" from me.

smeggle

Many many thanks for your replys, especially yours there aare as it gives me a good idea of what is going on now. Again, this looks like a case of one dept not knowing what another is doing and as such two sets of rules making everything backways/upwards.

Politicians eh? So the upshot of this looks like we've got a fight on our hands for our friend. I just wish he would sign on disability as he obviously merits it, apart from his long term mental health problems. He's to stubborn though and refuses to be seen 'On the rubbish tip' as he puts it.

We've told him he won't be etc but he see's it as that or as charity so it's hard going to help him sometimes.I know he has a housing application in so maybe we'll go down that road - see what we can do.

Anyway, many thanks again for your help. Really appreciate it.

dbnavan

what i would advise is say nothing about the rent increase to CWO and pay the land lord the 20 himself from his dole, once the CWO doesnt know ur paying the extra you will be ok, I had to do once when I was going through a tough time and was on RA.

aare

Oh please tell your friend that it ISN'T about "being on the rubbish tip", if he gets disability allowance he'll have a lot of fringe benefits (like the preferential treatment he needs in housing), and a lot of supports that will not only help him make his way into the mainstream workplace in his own time, but also help him find terms in which he will be able to stay there, and make his own, independent, future.

Let's hope it won't take too much of a fight to get his housing sorted out though. It may not.

dbnavan

aare wrote:

Oh please tell your friend that it ISN'T about "being on the rubbish tip", if he gets disability allowance he'll have a lot of fringe benefits (like the preferential treatment he needs in housing), and a lot of supports that will not only help him make his way into the mainstream workplace in his own time, but also help him find terms in which he will be able to stay there, and make his own, independent, future.

Let's hope it won't take too much of a fight to get his housing sorted out though. It may not.

While I agree that he is far from the rubbish tip, it is common misconception about preferential treatment to housing, I have Cerebral Palsy and am on housing list almost 3 years have to climb stairs to get into apartment and have had political representation for housing and have been told "i am not a priority"

aare

I didn't say he'd get ideal treatment, just preferential treatment.

Anyone on Disability Allowance (not sure about "Illness Benefit" since all the changes) is effectively exempt from the limits on rent allowance that apply to everyone else (within reason) in order to meet their "special needs".

Also, you cannot deny that as a single person living alone, if you were not disabled you would have more chance of winning the lotto than council housing before you reached retirement age. As it is, you have a realistic hope of being offered something within the next 5-10 years.

Of course IT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH, but it's way better than if you were not recognised as disabled.

I agree with you though, housing is the one gigantic hole in our otherwise (comparatively - look at the UK allowances some time) generous policies towards disability, and that is a very significant hole too. Many people with disability will never be able to work normally or own their own home. I really do not see why they should be consigned to trying to find the cheapest possible bedsitters just because they are single too, instead of being given a real home to call their own.

I do not see why the local councils could not allow disabled people to choose a home (within a realistic budget) and buy it for them, renting it out to them on the usual terms of tenancy. That way the disabled could have a REAL home of their own for life, with an option to buy, or request that the council sell and buy another property with the proceeds if their life changed to require it, just as if it were their own.

The councils would lose nothing (and might even make a profit) in the long term, as the property would be a standing investment guaranteed to AT LEAST keep pace with inflation.

The improvement to quality of life would be immeasureable, and, in the end, it wouldn't cost a darn thing, unlike as much as 40-50 years (assuming you at least get OAP housing) of dead money paid into the cheapest, seediest possible bedsits...that's an index linked cost of the equivalent of €250,000 per person, per life...daft, set against the alternative of no cost, or even profit.

Revolutionary?

You are DARN RIGHT it is...so sue me.

dbnavan

I agree with you and I totally agree with your suggestion of the council buying a home and renting it back, Disability allowence is a joke for someone to try and live on, never mind but a few bob by for a house, anyway when I get into politics one day I would like to highlight all of these issues,

aare

Why wait till then?

Adding it up on my fingers I realise I have just managed to come up with a win:win solution, I would LOVE to start lobbying TDs and the relevant ministers NOW, before the next election.

Maybe the boards community could drum up some low flying accounting and property people to help put together a formal proposal?

...and then somebody who fancies a career in politics (<hint-hint) could pick up the ball and run with it...

Why not?



PS I am SERIOUS here.

Victor

smeggle wrote:

Thanks for the answer Victor appreciated it.

How do you mean?

'There are maximum limits to the rent the recipient is allowed pay'

You mean there are alsolimits on what a rent allowance recipient is allowed to pay as well?

If someone was paying €2,000 a month on a luxury penthouse for himself, they would likely say "find somewhere cheaper". Seeing as CWA / Rent Allowence is a poverty-level payment.

Now thats a clear-cut case, your friends is less clear-cut and as aare suggests, he may be able to argue his case. Does your friend need someone to argue his case for him? Citizens Advice Bureau might be useful in this regard.

smeggle

Guys many thanks for all your help and suggestions.

As this guys friends we know he isn't on the 'Rubbish Tip' as he puts it but as you know when people get so down and depressed and have the problems some have, it is hard work to get there spirits back up and convince them otherwise.

Upshot of this at the moment is this.

The cwo has ok'd the increase for now to 107euro pushing him over the 100euro limit. (Due to the maximum 13euro he is allowed to pay). They have been really sneaky here though and 'Back Dated' the payements to the begining of Febuary. They've also said though that they will only pay this for 10 weeks.

This means that because they back dated everything he would have to find somewhere by begining of April. Bear in mind that he had only just put the claim in just before I posted last week?

So how they can 'Back Date' is beyond me and downright nast imo! One of our friends who is less than eloquent blistered at this and created a right uproar on the phone which was less than helpfull but I totally understand where he was coming from.

I mean, is that actually 'Legal'? To back date something even though it wasn't claimed for as a back dated service? I'm kinda sure it isn't.

Anyway - final upshot is that the citizens advice are up in arms and he's getting a whole heck of support from the community as a whole. The Landlord being one of the main supporters here believe it or not (Told you he was a nice guy )..

Anyway, they won't be moving him out any time soon - not if we can help it.

Thanks again for all your comments and advice.. really appreciate it..

aare

Well, as they are so "backdate happy" perhaps they would like to backdate the €5 excess he was paying from his allowance for as long as his rent was €100 and they only gave him €82, because THEY miscalculated?

That must be AT LEAST 2 years (the amount you had to contribute was increased from about €7 to €13 pw in about 2002 - 2003) which makes a nice sum of money.

I AM ALSO FURIOUS NOW.:mad:

Have you spoken to the council housing department yet?

That is important, because the CWO is effectively trying to make your friend homeless. I doubt if the current housing strategy supports that.

smeggle

aare wrote:

Well, as they are so "backdate happy" perhaps they would like to backdate the €5 excess he was paying from his allowance for as long as his rent was €100 and they only gave him €82, because THEY miscalculated?

That must be AT LEAST 2 years (the amount you had to contribute was increased from about €7 to €13 pw in about 2002 - 2003) which makes a nice sum of money.

I AM ALSO FURIOUS NOW.:mad:

Have you spoken to the council housing department yet?

That is important, because the CWO is effectively trying to make your friend homeless. I doubt if the current housing strategy supports that.

He's been on the housing list now for a few years. Actually it's part of the criteria I believe before they will allow rent allowance for private accommadation that the recipient apply for council housing. We'll be pursuing this avenue for him obviously.

What I find most interesting is your comment on the actual increase from 7euro to 13euro.

@ 82 euro allowance he did have to pay the extra 18euro, which they were fully aware of and so in that case they do actually owe him if I'm following you correctly? How very interesting and just go's to show that they are quick enough to cause distress yet will manipulate there way out of following there own rules.

Thanks for that tidy little bit of info. The more we have the better we can fight his cause.

Great stuff!

aare

Check with the CIC EXACTLY when the contribution went up from about €7 to about €13...might even be the beginning of 2004, then get out the calculator and start adding it up.

I don't mean contact the Council for housing, he won't get it, but the rent allowance system is in the process of being migrated to a situation where the Council actually pay the allowance not the health board (this migration has been going on for years, check details with CIC). The council has a very broad brief to deal with homelessness, which includes a degree of prevention, and may, in practice, have the authority to "straighten out" the CWO, as in, BUT GOOD. They may very well have effective power to override his decision.

I just took a look on the Citizen's Information Database and found something that may be really good news for your friend, look at the "Rental Accomodation Scheme", my take is that it will be compulsory:

http://www.cidb.ie/live.nsf/394e428be65b8d2e80256df90044977d/802567ca003e043d80256ebe00489083?OpenDocument

As far as I can see, your local council currently has the power to cut the CWO out of the loop altogether, go talk to them...ASAP