multiple attackers.

dlofnep

Just out of curiosity - Let's say 4 lads jump you - Do you honestly believe your training will allow you to defend yourself or are we all agreed that running and avoiding these situations is the best approach? I ask this because multiple attackers seems to be a common argument against BJJ as SD and I never quite understood it, given the fact that no training will do you any good against 3 or 4 guys regardless.

Let's be frank here guys.

Clive

dlofnep wrote:

given the fact that no training will do you any good against 3 or 4 guys regardless.

Not much room for discussion when you start quoting "facts". Put it this way - who would fare better against three scummers hopping on him, the average joe or Bas Rutten?

Not saying Bas Rutten would be knocking out three guys with liver shots (although you never know!) but in that scenario, getting home safe to your wife and kids (even if you don't look as pretty as when you left that night) is a victory.

dlofnep

Bas Rutten isn't human. Sorry I should of rephrased. Still, I don't think you should be under the pretences that you'll be able to deal with multiple attackers. Sure you might be able to knock one out with a punch, but it's near impossible to deal with 3 or 4 guys when they are all on you at once.

Valmont

If for some strange reason you decide against escaping and try to take on 3 or 4 guys, you kinda deserve a hidin'.

I really think that practitioners of any Martial art or MMA, let alone the arts that train how to deal with multiple attackers, don't really have much of a chance to take out a gang single handed.

It's just logical that you will get your ass kicked.

dlofnep

My point exactly. I think you can train to take one on one, or maybe have a killer left hook that might be able to drop two guys, but after that - You're talking about real problems.

4-age

dlofnep wrote:

My point exactly. I think you can train to take one on one, or maybe have a killer left hook that might be able to drop two guys, but after that - You're talking about real problems.

i saw somone that had a killer right hook like that.was in a popular drinking spot in clontarf.saw this guy accidently drop his drink and a bouncer told him he was too drunk and would have to leave the guy tried to explain it was an accident(he was obviously quite sober) and the bouncer hit him three times in the head,(the bouncer was bout 6"5 and huge)the other guy took th e punches like somone was blowing at him and knocked the bouncer out two more bouncers came running at him and the same thing happened.in the end it took bout seven bouncers to get him out and the kicked the sh*te out of him.i found out the two months later through a girl claiming to be his girlfriend that he was a amatuar boxing champion.He also was taking a law suit against the pub.

i no this is a complete annacdote but it was somthing that i was completly surprised by because i would not of thought he could take on three people by looking at him.just goes to show you should never judge a book by its cover.

however i still think the best defence is to leg it.if three or four lads were to jump on me id try to set a new land speed record.

Millionaire

sometimes you have to choice but to fight back.

I already detailed my incident on here, when 5 attacked me ,in Israel.
If it were not for my training, it honestly believe I would be on a life support machine, as these guys were nasty nasty nasty mindless violent thugs.

you are not going to "Win" against 5, not 4, nor 3, nor probably 2. lets me real about it.

The goal is to survive, and escape with at least amount of damage possible.

damo

If youre backed into a corner and couldnt run the only things that could possibly help you is good fitness and strength and maybe good standup, although if its against 3 or more attackers none of these will do you any good - the choreographed multiple attacker self defence techniques that some people study are laughable and totally detached from reality.

Millionaire

Yes, Its just total Chaos.

Crazy Monkey helps, and fast hard strikes.

waterford mma

unless elite at what you do, like the above boxer story, i think your training will not help you take out 3 - 4 guys, it might help minimise the damage you take though, for example if you are good at covering up and you already know what its like to get hit, someone who has not done any full contact sparring will get a huge shock when they hit the ground or get hit with a nice shot. . . . think that made sense :rolleyes:

carley gracie said at the first seminar he done here that he believes it is possible to use jiujitsu to take out multiple opponents, that by really locking on a sub and snapping someones arm etc you could scare the others off. not too sure about that myself but its better than other ideas i've seen used against multiple attackers. . .

Dragan

dlofnep wrote:

Just out of curiosity - Let's say 4 lads jump you - Do you honestly believe your training will allow you to defend yourself or are we all agreed that running and avoiding these situations is the best approach?

Me and a friend were jumped by 5 lads who we had had some grief from in a nightclub. We had left the club in an effort to avoid any trouble (( apparently i looked like someone who had been in a fight with one of the guys previously, and as they were all very drunk they became convinced that this was in fact me )) anyway, off we went down the street when my friend decided we would call into a chipper to check up on a friend of ours who we knew was doing the door on his own as his work partner had called in sick and we wanted to make sure everything was hunky doory.

Anyway, it would seem that the guys from the club had a craving for a burger as unfortunately they came into the chipper and saw us (( very unfortunate co-incidence as there must have been 3 chippers between the one we were in and the club! )). So me and my friend decide to leave to avoid an issues for the chipper as we knew everyone and really didn't want any trouble. So outside we go, the five lads followed us and it was on........ and about 5 seconds later it was off.

Two things people never seem to think about or talk about when it comes to "street" situations or "defending yourself" is the affect of alchohol.

In my scenario we had two completely sober, well trained doormen and 5 quite drunk, completely untrained idiots.

I put down two without throwing a single punch, as did my friend ( the old grab and leg sweep and a simple grab and throw ) and then we headed up the road at a light jog to avoid any further issues.

Was anyone hurt, nope, not that i am aware of, so a good result all round i feel.

In the case of any form of competition , be it one on one in the cage, or groups in the street there are a huge ammount of factors to take into account.

Generally, on the street, alchohol will be a factor.

Now lets reverse the situation, imagine if me and my friend had been very drunk against 5 perfectly sober, yet untrained guys. We would have "lost".

I guess what i'm trying to say is that there are loads of different factors to take into account that just numbers i suppose.

I came out lucky in this group situation for which i am thankful.

Roper

I think this is a bit of a loaded topic from the off. Ultimately EVERYBODY who has an ounce of common sense knows that running is the best option. A better debate would be how to prepare for a multiple attacker situation.

In any case, for a bit of a laugh if nothing else, get yourself a headguard, a gumshield, and three mates in VT gloves. Then have them be the attackers and you the defender, and let it be unplanned, unstaged and all out. I guarantee you get hammered, but it can be fun.... if you're into that.

Quillo

Found myself backed against a wall many years ago with a group of maybe 8 or 9 youths in front of me (I was a youth myself at the time !). There was only one or two of them really looking for trouble but the others were pushing them on looking to see a fight.

I figured I could out run them as they all appeared to have some drink on board so I just hit the guy nearest me as hard as I could and legged it through the gap. No one even tried to follow me.

This was before I had any MA training but it has always left me wary of any MA or SD approach that involves hanging around......

Pro. F

Originally Posted by dlofnep (in diff thread)
Also, multiple attackers - Run. At the end of the day, if 3 or 4 guys want to beat you up, no training will stop them.

thats just too fatalistic for me man! anyway theres plenty of training that will help you out in a multiple attacker situation- mostly concentrates on seeing the threat early, movement in relation to the attackers, pre-emptive striking, etc. theres plenty of drills and sparring situations involved in the training (check out Geoff Thompson's stuff for example). i don't think this stuff will make anybody a mob combat imortal but it's far better than nothin.
and, ye, i agree that running can often be the best option. but it's not always an option.

if you can't beat someone one on one, what makes you think you can defend multiple attackers?

ye i agree. a strong base in effective MA at all ranges is a prerequisite.

Pro. F

just to clarify- i agree that multiple attackers is seriously bad news but that's no reason not to try and mitigate against it with some training/thought.

FiannaGym.com

I'm fairly happy I can out run most people. I can also Jackie Chan their asses with comedic use of random objects as weapons.

Peace

Quillo

This from today's Escrima Digest...:)

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:43:06 -0000
From: "Gilmour, Julian" <julian.gilmour@financial-ombudsman.org.uk>
To: <eskrima@martialartsresource.net>
Subject: [Eskrima] The search for realism in training
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

Hi all
WEKAF? Muay Boran? MMA? BJJ?
Pah!

Some time ago I asked my entire gym to surprise me with live weapons. When it finally happened I was unarmed and unprepared. In the shower actually. 40 or 50 of them (I lost count after about 25) poured into the changing rooms, amok. I disarmed the first two of their swords, and with one in either hand, dispatched the rest the rest of them. I decapitated most but due to the amount of blood and guts it was difficult to ascertain exactly what proportion.

Whilst in the adrenal state, at no point did I stray from triangular footwork and Heaven 6 (Inosanto/Lacosta), although I don't think I came anywhere near to breaking the record of the two guys at Nanking. I obviously have some work to go yet. The only four survivors (they were off sick that day) are now primed to parachute onto the roof of my building at night, pipe knockout gas through the air vents, tie me and my girlfriend up in our sleep, steal all my valuables and then shoot us both in the head. I'm ready for them.

I just hope it doesn't happen tonight, I've had a dreadful day at work and I could do with a relaxing evening.

Empty your cup
Julian

Dragan

FiannaGym.com wrote:

I can also Jackie Chan their asses with comedic use of random objects as weapons.

I once took out a bar full of bikers using a soggy beer mat and a broken cocktail stick, but i did cut my middle finger in the process so it wasn't a flawless victory i suppose! :rolleyes:

Roper

Quillo wrote:

This from today's Escrima Digest...:)

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:43:06 -0000
From: "Gilmour, Julian" <julian.gilmour@financial-ombudsman.org.uk>
To: <eskrima@martialartsresource.net>
Subject: [Eskrima] The search for realism in training
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

Hi all
WEKAF? Muay Boran? MMA? BJJ?
Pah!

Some time ago I asked my entire gym to surprise me with live weapons. When it finally happened I was unarmed and unprepared. In the shower actually. 40 or 50 of them (I lost count after about 25) poured into the changing rooms, amok. I disarmed the first two of their swords, and with one in either hand, dispatched the rest the rest of them. I decapitated most but due to the amount of blood and guts it was difficult to ascertain exactly what proportion.

Whilst in the adrenal state, at no point did I stray from triangular footwork and Heaven 6 (Inosanto/Lacosta), although I don't think I came anywhere near to breaking the record of the two guys at Nanking. I obviously have some work to go yet. The only four survivors (they were off sick that day) are now primed to parachute onto the roof of my building at night, pipe knockout gas through the air vents, tie me and my girlfriend up in our sleep, steal all my valuables and then shoot us both in the head. I'm ready for them.

I just hope it doesn't happen tonight, I've had a dreadful day at work and I could do with a relaxing evening.

Empty your cup
Julian

Classic!:D

Dave Joyce

Here we go again, is it something about the SE:) You've brought this up before and I think everyone said its obviously a great idea to run away (AND thats the FIRST thing to try to do), but yet again there are times when you can't because you were dozey and got cornered, have a partner/kids with you who may not be able to keep up. However, there are martial arts designed to train against multiple attackers....but lets have a reality check. Talk, reason, bull****, whatever you have to do to try to prevent the situation going live/physical but if you can't then these guys will not JUST want to give you a few slaps but REALLY kick your head/teeth in if you're lucky. So you may have to do shi* thats NOT nice, maybe not legal and are you prepared to go that far to survive. Remember one thing, your quality of life can be ****ed up for good, (serious head trauma, paralised etc) and you will not be a statistic (as guys love to quote here), but you then have to live the rest of your life in that state. I could give an example of a guy that trained with me years ago, but then that would just be anecdotal! Ahh, fuvk it, I piss guys off anyway, so what the fuvk. This particular individual trained in Thai with me and while he didn't start fights, wouldn't back away from them even when he could. Anyway, I warned him that crap always goes in circles, karma if you like (wow, MMA guys will really love this one:)) and he'll have bad **** in return some day if he didn't ease back. Anyways, he got jumped one night by a couple of guys and had his arm broken, but still didn't learn his lesson. (Had stopped training with me by now). Low and behold, a couple of weeks later and him on the mend, while in a chipper with his girlfriend, he got into a row with some guys and it turned into a scrape and she screams to leave him alone as his arm is injured, which scumbags take good note of and proceed to kick the crap outta his arm. Although his arm is reasonable now, it'll never be 100%

Roper

Well despite your anecdote being, well, anecdotal evidence, it does serve as an example. If you're not willing to do anything to avoid a fight, then you'd better be prepared to get injured and posiibly fvcked up.

I agree with you Dave, this is a bullsh1t topic, there's no debate here, just common sense.

Boru.

If it’s a situation where you can't run and you’re out numbered I think it becomes very much psychological. If you can't marshal yourself to keep going and fending off the constant barrage of attacks, even when you have been it multiple times and are sore and injured then you lose. If you can keep fighting you stand a chance however relatively small. This is why you should practice scenarios like the Israeli Boiler test. It’s a drill designed to test your "mental fortitude".

Several different arts call under a different name, but the basics of it are as follows/ Try it out it’s a great eye opener.

Everyone has kicking shields and surrounds you. You should have about 10 people for this.

Establish three distances
1) Surrounding but outside of immediate reach, the guy in the middle will have to move to hit you.
2) Within touching distance of the centre guy.
3) Crushing the centre guy.

Have everyone start at 1. Then select one individual to run in and push the centre guy with his shield - the centre guy then attacks this person, immediately launch another person in once the first has been engaged. The idea is to have the centre guy constantly reacting to new, fresh opponents. Blind side him often.

Randomly call 2 and everyone close in, again select individuals to rush him.

3 everyone piles in on him - the idea is to break free and get out! Once out, if able the exercise is restarted.

Keep the length of this drill to your own discretion, some can last a minute, some more, most less. Fighting multiple opponents all out is exhausting, that said the idea is to teach you to keep going past this.

Another excellent exercise is to drill an actual multiple attack scenario. This is often done in my women’s survival course. Have two people in full safety gear attack a lone individual. You can use any techniques you choose, and keep in mind that if you are out numbered you could justify the use of deadly force (e.g. eye gouges etc). One consideration if you are doing this drill is to make sure that if someone is taken to the ground that you don’t land heavy on them.

Two other drills I teach that come to mind would be the Box and the Crescent. The box is where you are unarmed and have to defend a set amount of space from two aggressors. This drill is performed again with upwards of ten people, two of whom are selected to attack, the others just threaten to. Obviously the defender is unaware as to who will attack and who won’t, and they then have to deal with two people spontaneously rushing them and defending a confined space.
The Crescent is real good fun. You’re backed up against a wall, again upwards of ten armed opponents, sticks bats iron bars etc, you also are armed with a stick. You have to keep you back tot eh wall and defend against multiple simultaneous attackers. This is great fun.

I’m going to do an issue on this in the next newsletter, so I’ll throw up photos and video footage for everyone to see.

Can you defend against multiple opponents? Can you survive? Practice it as realistically as possible and you’ll have a fair idea.

Pro. F

dlofnep wrote:

I ask this because multiple attackers seems to be a common argument against BJJ as SD and I never quite understood it, given the fact that no training will do you any good against 3 or 4 guys regardless.

Let's be frank here guys.

so dlofnep after the various posts here do you now think that there is a possibility that there is some training that might do you some good against multiple attackers?

Millionaire

Boru. wrote:

If it’s a situation where you can't run and you’re out numbered I think it becomes very much psychological. If you can't marshal yourself to keep going and fending off the constant barrage of attacks, even when you have been it multiple times and are sore and injured then you lose. If you can keep fighting you stand a chance however relatively small. This is why you should practice scenarios like the Israeli Boiler test. It’s a drill designed to test your "mental fortitude".

The Circle of Death!... is another name for this.

Yes I have done all those drills many times before.

Its non stop fighting! VERY different from Match fighting.

These are very important SD drills.

As long as its backed up with continous training, and sparring of course.

You almost collapse after that drill.

dlofnep

Pro. F wrote:

so dlofnep after the various posts here do you now think that there is a possibility that there is some training that might do you some good against multiple attackers?

Not really. Some good as in you might be able to block some punches better - Sure, some good as have a chance to beat them? Nope.

kenpo_dave

People seem to think that street attackers are 'god like'. I was told a story once about a guy who was jumped on by 8 guys in their mid to late teens. The one guy ended up kicking to bollox out of the lot of them only for one simple reason...none of them could actually punch properly. Also, he was a full contact kickboxing instructor. As Jon Bluming said on that clip I posted in the "MMA - Sport or Self defense" thread - Any street fighter, once hes on the ground, hes a baby.

padraigcarroll

what if said streetfighter is on top in the mount position, on the ground, Kenpo Dave?!

Cabelo

Listen, last time I was on the ground in a street fight I was 7... cats-feesh?

Musashi

padraigcarroll wrote:

what if said streetfighter is on top in the mount position, on the ground, Kenpo Dave

Pull him close so his mates kick him as much as you! Grab him be the Knackers and the Trachea and foist him off if safe to do so. Regain your feet and take off like you should have done before ya got mounted!

Streetfighters are like the rest of us, they can be good or bad, experienced or just living up to the Hype Gangsta Stylee. If you Have To fight him, lay him out fast or bang and run. The only problem, especially in a small town like me, is he will know you and yours and target you and your family for reprisals ranging from hassle and cat calls to putting gunpowder in the exhaust of your fathers van (actually has happened). So for a quiet life do whatever style you like and stay away from lads with nothing to lose. Train and Study hard, get up and out.
And if you do have to, like it says in "The Prince", make sure the beating you hand down is so awesome and scary no-one else wants any

padraigcarroll

heh heh!
you won't get any arguments re: dirty fighting from me my friend!!

lungqino111

“I can’t so no one can!”

Fighting ultimately comes down to intent, a stoical acceptance of pain, and a determination to beat the other guys. Fight not Flight! Skill ultimately means being able to inflict a lot of damage without receiving much. So…. If you’ve trained hard enough and become skilled enough that when in a one on one competition, you receive an attack from a well trained opponent only after an average of dishing out five + attacks it stands to reason that when **** street thugs, and they’re always ****, try to attack you you’re work rate will be far greater than theirs. Now back to intent, only a coward, i.e. someone who relies on numbers -out of herd i.e. prey-psychology to overcome- will be involved in gang attacks, their intent is already weak, take out one or two fast and viciously and suddenly no one wants to mix. Being trained to cover up and guard disheartens those whose belief system crashes after you don’t drop as they predicted, add faints and draws and suddenly the hyenas realise that they’ve entered the Lion’s Den, mistaking it for a stray antelope.

I sought out a martial art after living in places like Ballymun – which has the name but really its not so bad, Dolphin’s Barn – which lives up to its name ( at least it did in the mid-nineties), and spending times on the street and the Model Hostel, Benburb Street. I was a punk, red and green spiked hair, so landlords didn’t generally want to rent out to ya? This also meant that everyone saw you as fair game and were correct in presuming that no matter what they did the cops wouldn’t be involved or give a ****……..Suddenly you’re relying on your self, a real old fashioned “outlaw”. Originally I tried to talk my way out of situations, allowing people to riffle through my pockets, taking an obvious chambered dig, stuff that shames me now. But as it happened, for me anyway, one day after years or this **** 2-3 times a week, I decided I’d rather die than submit again, didn’t fancy dying so took up martial arts. (Well it certainly gave me intent, maybe too much, a few years later on a Lei Tai in London, my cheek bone was fractured, but I fought on resolving never to show weakness etc..)

Funny things happen, you shave your hair, take the nose rings out, all to fight competitively. Suddenly you’re not receiving as much unwanted attention, but when you do, you’re sharp, more powerful and have seen it all before, now what pisses me off is that I drop them before I get any satisfaction! Being honest here. Not trying to brag. I’m personally not interested and get no sense of achievement out of street fighting, it’s too easy! I will accept any amount of personal abuse and walk away, however if my girl or family have been threatened or endangered I have acted and done so unmercifully. Perhaps amoral, or maybe an honest and unadulterated response?

Through the life choices I’ve made, I’ve been in the situations that I’m reading about people imagining on this forum. Funny thing is that I totally believe - with the benefit of experience - that anyone here who has trained which ever system sincerely, in an “alive” fashion, what ever you want to call it, will easily go through a single antagoniser, and probably due to their reaction conditioning, do well enough to deter multiple attackers from going all out.

As an aside, go to a Discharge gig and pogo, to train for multiple attackers!!!, but joking aside, try letting two people spar against you, concentrate on always getting to a position where one opponent is in the way of another. You’re only good in the ring, Lei Tai, Cage because you train for it, and if it’s your buzz, try training against multiples until it becomes as natural?


Not trying to proclaim a way here, I’ve been hesitant in writing this, but seen too much bad ****, and if this helps cool!

Musashi

Sounds like my family but without the court cases!
Even if you "win" on the street you'll have to explain in court. Try to remember that lads please?

If any doubt this, ask Dlofnep about "Cousin Tina", not actually my cousin (actually she is, and one of many!)

I know he can't discuss ongoing cases, any more than I can. He can however present cases without the bias or spin I would apply to stuff affecting my family.

Actually, if he asks "Cousin Tina" about the rest of the family it may make things clearer for John?

Best Of Luck!

Dave Joyce

Wow, some post there Niall and geniunely fair play for putting it up as it seemed to come from the heart!

As Niall said (and agree 100% to try to put one in the others way rather than train to duke it out with a gang of guys and more dangerously at times girls), it is possible to train for these type of scenarios and as I've said before, my instructors in Atienza Kali (Guros Carl, Darryl and Allain) have had to use their training to survive (and I do mean SURVIVE) when they were growing up in NY from an early age and what they teach is what they used to survive those times. Man, some of their stories are really hard to listen to, as life is very cheap in some places.

Roper

kenpo_dave wrote:

People seem to think that street attackers are 'god like'. I was told a story once about a guy who was jumped on by 8 guys in their mid to late teens. The one guy ended up kicking to bollox out of the lot of them only for one simple reason...none of them could actually punch properly. Also, he was a full contact kickboxing instructor. As Jon Bluming said on that clip I posted in the "MMA - Sport or Self defense" thread - Any street fighter, once hes on the ground, hes a baby.

I once heard about a guy who was a 9th Dan in some Kratty style and he could punch through walls and ice blocks and some guys jumped on him and he shot one of them with a fireball fron his arse...

What exactly is a streetfighter? I'm willing to bet that such a thing doesn't exist in the way most people mean it. That there isn't one coherent "style" of streetfighter, and that when one of them is on the ground, it very much depends on what he or you can do on the ground to see of he's a "baby" or not.

Keep up the imagination work lads.

Mikel

lungqino111 wrote:

...suddenly the hyenas realise that they’ve entered the Lion’s Den, mistaking it for a stray antelope.
……..Suddenly you’re relying on your self, a real old fashioned “outlaw”.
......I decided I’d rather die than submit again, didn’t fancy dying so took up martial arts. .....now what pisses me off is that I drop them before I get any satisfaction! ....it’s too easy!

LOL adolescent fantasies are FUN!!
Keep taking the tablets.

Baggio...

Against 4 committed street thugs you are going to loose, attacking first is the most important thing. Then it's a case of launching a flurry of punches, and thus (hopefully) providing a gap so you can run like hell. It just becomes a case of damage limitation.

I often hear TMA saying stuff like "I kicked the crap out 8 blokes" or "I could no problem...", either they are lying, or have never had to deal with multiple attackers. Or maybe they are talking about beating on 8 little imaginary Pixies:D . Those Martial Artists are in for a real shock when they are faced with proper opponents.

Cheers,

Baggio.

kenpo_dave

Baggio... wrote:

Against 4 committed street thugs you are going to loose, attacking first is the most important thing. Then it's a case of launching a flurry of punches, and thus (hopefully) providing a gap so you can run like hell. It just becomes a case of damage limitation.

I often hear TMA saying stuff like "I kicked the crap out 8 blokes" or "I could no problem...", either they are lying, or have never had to deal with multiple attackers. Or maybe they are talking about beating on 8 little imaginary Pixies:D . Those Martial Artists are in for a real shock when they are faced with proper opponents.

It is very possible to take on more than one attacker, especially if you train in a full-contact martial art. But it really all depends on who the attackers are. The attackers in the story about the kickboxer werent "committed street thugs", they were guys who couldnt even punch properly, against someone who is used to getting punched and kicked hard.

Roper wrote:

when one of them is on the ground, it very much depends on what he or you can do on the ground to see of he's a "baby" or not.

I assume what Bluming was talking about is from an MMA point of view. We all know that people who dont actively train in ground fighting have pitiful skills when it comes to that range.

Baggio...

Hey Kenpo Dave,

Did you actually see this Kickboxer take out those 8 guys? Sounds like he told you a very tall tale.

But as you said it depends on the attacker, usually people who attack in groups will just stamp the crap out of you.

So as they say... I'll believe it when I see it.

Cheers,

Baggio.

kenpo_dave

Baggio... wrote:

Hey Kenpo Dave,

Did you actually see this Kickboxer take out those 8 guys? Sounds like he told you a very tall tale.

But as you said it depends on the attacker, usually people who attack in groups will just stamp the crap out of you.

So as they say... I'll believe it when I see it.

Cheers,

Baggio.

Ye I know it sounds like a tall tale, and to be honest I dont really care if its true or not. If it did happen, its a freak occurance.

Baggio...

Howdy K.Dave,

Just an after thought.....

The only way I could see someone walking away from that type of scenario is if the guy clocked the leader, and the rest did not really want to get involved (if they were kids or average Joe's), as they felt that the M.A. was a tough adversary. But 8 lads from the flats – no chance, they would be straight in.

There is a American Pro skater, can't remember his name. But he's famous for being a real “hard man”. CCTV caught one of his so called famous fights. Where he took out four guys. In the interview he remarked how he just went in and took them all out, no problems. What he failed to mention is that the four guys were just regular Joe's, and were not up for a scrap at all. One of them had slagged him off for being a skater, the others were doing nothing. So pro skater lad just milled into them one at a time. The other guys did not want too fight and were pretty scared, so they just tried to back off, but pro boy threw a few digs in anyway. So he apparently took out “four guys”. Like to see him take out one trained opponents or 4 committed attackers, I'd say he'd be pulling his skateboard out of various parts of his anatomy.

Another dodgy area is the whole “full contact” thing. Are we really doing full contact?, well we are in a sporting or Dojo Sense. Where there are rules and safety precautions (obviously there has to be). I just feel that it's easy to lull yourself into a false Sense of security. We are not being hit that hard, there are gloves and rules (you can't hit here or do that etc.). It's great training and it's realistic – but it's not REAL. Nearest thing I've seen to full contact stuff is the original Bare Knuckle Boxing. I've got a mate who does it down the country – He's insane....:D

Just my take,

Baggio.