Donegal Town shopping centres?

byte

Will Donegal Town ever see any of the proposed shopping centres that have been on and off the cards for the past number of years?

On one side we have Keeney Construction with Bennett Construction on the other. Both have apparently big aspirations as to what they plan to build in the town, with promises of chain stores like Tesco and Dunnes Stores being mooted.

Sadly, not as much as one brick has been built by either company. So many yes/no's, if/but, etc etc. The mart is sold, the mart is not sold...

As it stands now, I'm at a loss as to who aims to build what, and where. Magees Factory was supposed to be changed into some shopping center too, but nothing seems to be changing there either.

And of course the latest laugh is Keeney's reporting Bennett's to the council for working on lands without permission.

Link: Donegal Times

So, for any users here, familiar with Donegal Town, what can you see happening with these developments? Will there be any progress in the forseeable future?

I also noticed Ciaran Twomey has seemingly stepped down as Director of the Donegal town community chamber.

muffler

And I thought that the twin towns was the only place where there is continual bickering.
I've read a wee bit about the Bennett/keeney saga and I have to say that it is time for someone in authority to step in and take control of the situation.

byte

oceanfm.ie wrote:

Dunnes Stores could be on it's way to Donegal Town with the county council having granted planning permission for a development with the potential to create up to 300 jobs during the construction phase.

It is proposed that the site at the Mullans and Drumcliff on the Killybegs road which is just over three hectares in size, would consist of twelve individual retail units along with a Dunnes Stores outlet, carparking, a winebar and restaurant.

The application, submitted to Donegal County Council almost 12 months ago, has been made by Bennett Construction of Co. Westmeath.

Local Clr. Jonathan Kennedy is anxious that the project proceeds as soon as possible.

Chairperson of the local community chamber, Ernan McGettigan said former Donegal Town development officer, Sian Breslin played a major role in re-zoning the lands on which planning permission has been granted.

I wonder if there will be any more delays now...... :rolleyes:

smashey

byte wrote:

I wonder if there will be any more delays now...... :rolleyes:

I would imagine An Bord Pleanala might be getting a look at this in the near future.

muffler

Good news there byte, for the next couple of weeks at least.

I know the Bennet/Keeney thingy was about the development of land at Drumlonagher but is there any friction between them in relation to this site

Im stupid

bettlebrox

http://www.oceanfm.ie/onair/donegalnews.php?articleid=000002845

Donegal Town wants all development, meeting told Mar 30, 5:12 pm
Substantial housing developments could be lost to Donegal Town if objections to major retailers continue, a public meeting was told last night.

Approximately 1,200 people attended last night's meeting which was called to discuss the level of planning objections which are jeopardising developments in Donegal Town.

Auctioneer, Keith Anderson said planning permission is in the pipeline for 1,000 houses in Donegal Town with a further 500 applications set to be submitted. However, if retailers such as Dunnes Stores are snubbed, property developers will not proceed with building houses, he said.

The possibility of staging a mass demonstration at the offices of An Bord Pleanala should an objection be lodged to a recently approved Dunnes Stores development at the Mullans was also discussed.

Clr. Jonathan Kennedy organised the meeting.

Up to 1000 or 1500 new houses? That could increase the local population from a minimum of 1000 up to 3000. This could create big urban areas or housing estates with no facalites, no shops, more cars on the road. Would require extensions to the schools, improvements to the local infrastructure including; the electricity, the water system, more Gardai ...

Plus, who wants all these new houses and why? The whole Government decentralisation thing doesn't seem to be going well. so I doubt a few thousand civil servants will relocate to Donegal (especially Donegal Town). Mainly because many of the people who work for the Civil Service in Dublin work for them because they are in Dublin and don't want to move down the country.

What the town needs is more manufacturing jobs and more people with good jobs. This by itself will pump more money into the local economy than any shopping center, and will attract the shops everyone is clambering for.

What does everyone else think?

byte

Well written post bettlebrox.

At the moment, I can see no benefit for 1000 houses though it might just push down the prices of property in Donegal Town. As it stands, houses are more expensive in Donegal Town than in Ballybofey and Letterkenny. Not so sure why they're so expensive since there isn't much in Donegal Town to give people reason to buy there. That's why the more development the better.

I agree that manufacturing jobs would be very important, but I can't see many manufacturers wanting to bother coming to a town with poor transport facilities. There isn't even a basic train line! So lorries are the only method of transporting goods which aren't getting any cheaper to run.

Paddy20

byte wrote:

Well written post bettlebrox

I agree:eek: that manufacturing jobs would be very important, but I can't see many manufacturers wanting to bother coming to a town with poor transport facilities. There isn't even a basic train line! So lorries are the only method of transporting goods which aren't getting any cheaper to run.

So, the new houses might have 'Industrial manufactuting estates' built at the 'bottom of their gardens if DCC keep to their track record ?...

Be VERY careful where you choose to live !.:eek:

P. :cool:

byte

Paddy20 wrote:

So, the new houses might have 'Industrial manufactuting estates' built at the 'bottom of their gardens if DCC keep to their track record ?...

Be VERY careful where you choose to live !.:eek:

P. :cool:

That would be very handy. Just get a job in the Industrial Estate, then when you need to go to work, just jump the backyard fence, and voila! You're at work! No commuting neccessary

Paddy20

byte wrote:

That would be very handy. Just get a job in the Industrial Estate, then when you need to go to work, just jump the backyard fence, and voila! You're at work! No commuting neccessary

I think the would very quickly turn into more :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: and more Council employees heads will roll , making me personally very .

P. :cool:

muffler

[QUOTE=bettlebrox Up to 1000 or 1500 new houses? That could increase the local population from a minimum of 1000 up to 3000. This could create big urban areas or housing estates with no facalites, no shops, more cars on the road. Would require extensions to the schools, improvements to the local infrastructure including; the electricity, the water system, more Gardai ...

Plus, who wants all these new houses and why?

What the town needs is more manufacturing jobs and more people with good jobs. This by itself will pump more money into the local economy than any shopping center, and will attract the shops everyone is clambering for.QUOTE]

I cant understand what you are trying to say here. You are quite right in saying that Donegal needs more jods as does every other town in the county. But are you saying that there should be no further housing development?
If there are more jobs then where are the workers supposed to live?

Jobs = more houses = more shops = more urban generation = more investment = more jobs.

In relation to your point of more cars, school extensions, more gardai, extension of public services etc etc. what do you expect. Donegal is already a designated large urban town and towns must grow and the services and infrastructure grow with it. Its called progress.

The underlying tone of your comment appears to be to get more jobs for the locals of Donegal only and let them and them alone build their houses.

Just for the record the population of Donegal Town in 2002 was 2453, an increase of 6% from 1996

bettlebrox

muffler wrote:

I cant understand what you are trying to say here. You are quite right in saying that Donegal needs more jods as does every other town in the county. But are you saying that there should be no further housing development?

No that's not what I meant. But I think having so many houses in the works in at one time may be too many all at once. On the other hand, 1000 or so new houses might lower prices which be beneficla for many of my friends looking to build or buy a house.

muffler wrote:

If there are more jobs then where are the workers supposed to live?

Jobs = more houses = more shops = more urban generation = more investment = more jobs.

I agree, but I think they're putting the cart before the horse. New jobs sources are needed to offset those lost by Magee's and Hospira. I'm not sure if working in a shopping center is an adequate replacement? Plus, services like those created by shopping centers will create jobs, but generally lower paying jobs, plus more profits leave the area than stay because they're actively taking money out of the local economy. With manufacturing or light industry jobs more money is pumped into the local economy than leaves.

The Abbot's announcement is great, 150 jobs for the Hospira plant, but why do I feel like this is still a raw deal? Abbot's spins off the plant to a subsidary called Hospira, then closes the plant, and now announces 150 "new" jobs? I wonder how much additional money and grants and tax rebates they'll get from the Government for what amounts to firing a few hundred people? Am I getting too cynical?

I do think Donegal Town needs more retail outlets. I know I get bloody frustrated by the limited choice in town and having to spin over to Letterkenny or Sligo for clothes and stuff. Speaking of Letterkenny, do we really want the town to have that style of growth? Just urban sprawl domainated by the car and fecking traffic ...

muffler wrote:

In relation to your point of more cars, school extensions, more gardai, extension of public services etc etc. what do you expect.

What do I expect? I expect the local politicians to get a decent town plan done that enhances the livability of the area and not demand new housing and huge retail developments and worry about the consequences later. I expect the planners, who know how easily urban environments can be ruined, to be allowed to do their jobs and not be overruled by local politicians who get bamboozled by developers with fancy PowerPoint skills. (Of course this is just speculation on my part and not to taken as factual.)

But, what I expect will really happen is we'll get some poxy shopping center that will be old and dated looking in 10 years, I expect we'll get a bunch of huge ugly housing estates with no green spaces, no footpaths, no faculties and disenfranchised youth causing mayhem and problems ... and everyone wondering why?

muffler wrote:

Donegal is already a designated large urban town and towns must grow and the services and infrastructure grow with it.

I didn't know that, thanks! I had heard that the town perimeter had expanded out to Ballydevitt.

muffler wrote:

Its called progress.

Progress is grand, but unplanned urban sprawl and urban wastelands I've seen enough of in my life to realise that unplanned urban growth and sprawl is just awful, hideous, unaesthetic, and create really bad social situations and problems.

I worry that we're copying an American model of urban planning and lack of planning instead of trying to be more like some our European (Continental) neighbours. I worry that we're creating a car domainated society and all the ill that follows thats.

To me progress is planned housing and development that creates livable urban environments, not just rows upon rows of houses. I can dream can't I?

muffler wrote:

The underlying tone of your comment appears to be to get more jobs for the locals of Donegal only and let them and them alone build their houses.

Isn't that supposed to be point of all this growth? To benefit the town and the surrounding areas and those who live there? Do we want growth that bring in tonnes of non-locals to fill jobs and create resentment with the existing population? Do we want the town to be better or worse?

Now, don't get me wrong, I think the numbers of non-natives in the area is great, it brings a bit of a cosmopolitical feel to the area when they're visible. I can't wait for Dom's to carry some good Polish beer, or some of that good Lithuanian Heffe-Weisse I've tried!

muffler wrote:

Just for the record the population of Donegal Town in 2002 was 2453, an increase of 6% from 1996

Wow, I thought the population was bigger than that. So an additional 1000 houses could increase the population by 1/3 or 1/2 which is a big growth rate and if done badly could be more harmful for the town and it's peoples than beneficial.

I know I don't have many answers and lot's of questions, but everyone needs to question everything that happens to try and ensure that the Town get's the best growth. And not become a dead town center with shopping centers on the ring road (the bypass) and these surrounded by masses of housing estates and gridlocked traffic!

Oh, and we need better friggin roads outta the county! Imagine a nice dual-carrigeway all the Dublin!

bettlebrox

byte wrote:

That would be very handy. Just get a job in the Industrial Estate, then when you need to go to work, just jump the backyard fence, and voila! You're at work! No commuting neccessary

Yeah and just hope you don't get crushed by a fecking trailer falling on top of you as U pop home for lunch ... looking at Paddy's pics I'm just agast at how residental and commerical premises can be so poorly planned and mixed together.

Sorry for such a long post up above!

bettlebrox

Article at The Times:

"Both proposals have stalled after the planning board turned them down following objections."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-2125017,00.html

Anyone know what An Bord Pleanala's objections are?

byte

Ooh, not something I'd expect published in the Times!

muffler

bettlebrox wrote:

Article at The Times:

"Both proposals have stalled after the planning board turned them down following objections."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-2125017,00.html

Anyone know what An Bord Pleanala's objections are?

I had a quick trawl through An Bord Pleanala's website - http://www.pleanala.ie/ looking at decisions made over the last 4 or 5 weeks but could not see anything. If it was made in the last 10 days it wont show up yet but the information will all be there.

For anyone not familiar with the website - click on link above, click on SEARCH FOR PLANNING APPEALS AND OTHER CASES, click "View all Cases 2006" (or which ever year you want), then click "Decided Cases" (or New Cases if you want to have a gander round that)

The counties are listed in alphabetical order

bettlebrox

Google to the rescue:

Cases about Donegal Town in 2006:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22donegal+town%22+2006++site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleanala.ie&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=

Cases about Donegal Town in 2005:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22donegal+town%22+2005++site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleanala.ie&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=


Of course all the decisions are in Microsoft word, kinda defeating the purpose of putting docs on the web if you can't use a web brower to read them. But, again Google to the rescue! Here where the development at Drumlongaher was refused:

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:G0NcUD8LH4oJ:www.pleanala.ie/ORD/211/D211408.DOC+%22donegal+town%22+2006++site:http://www.pleanala.ie&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8

Having regard to the size of the population of Donegal town, the scale of permitted retail and retail warehouse development in the vicinity and to the scale and mix of the proposed development, it is considered that the proposed development would be excessive to serve the needs of the existing population in the area and that, notwithstanding the proposal to restrict the range of goods that would be sold from the retail units, the proposed development would have an adverse impact on the vitality and viability of the town centre. The proposed development would also contravene the objective set out in paragraph 25 of the “Guidelines for Planning Authorities on Retail Planning” issued by the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government in January, 2005 to support the continuing role of town centres. The proposed development would, therefore, be contrary to proper planning and sustainable development in the area.

Here's another about Drunlongaher:

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:UurybkQen7gJ:www.pleanala.ie/DCT/209/S209560.DOC+%22donegal+town%22+2005++site:http://www.pleanala.ie&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

Having regard to the nature of the proposed development it is considered that the proposed development would endanger public safety by reason of traffic hazard because of the additional traffic turning movements the development would generate at the entrance road to the site, which is 90 metres from the Drumlonagher Roundabout on the N15/N56 National Routes. The proposed development would also contravene the National Roads Policy, which seeks to protect the level of service and carrying capacity of the National Routes and to safeguard the public investment in the national road

If you find any interesting ones please post them.

donegalman1

Can we just give the mulrines thing its own thread so it doesn't keep popping up in everything.

Donegal Town has a lot to offer and as of yet isn't completely spoiled.

Lets face it Tourism in the county is on its last legs, Planning or lack of it has sorted that out but Donegal has the opportunity to become another Killarney without hopefully the commercialism that Kerry has taken on.

Talk of Manafacturing Jobs anywhere in Donegal is a red herring as any company, local or international shall only now set up for the duration of grant aid etc. Politically its expedient short term but we will see these companies go too.

Donegal had unrivalled scenery with people who loved this, its inhabitants and charm. This is being lost on a daily basis and currently it is the only resource that cannot be shipped off to Morrocco or wherever.

Its not just Northern Ireland residents Holiday homes that are the problem. Many Holiday Homes are built locally by local developers and landowners who see the quick buck. Many Germans, French and Americans expect the weather but the Donegal Failte has deteriorated along with the landescape.

Each and everyone of us in Donegal need to loose the cynicism and regain what has made us popular for years... a bit of the old Donegal Charm and welcome. Could anyone on the Boards really sell Donegal anymore to foreign visitors.

Good planning will only come when we stop voting in Section 4 councillors etc.

bettlebrox

donegalman1 wrote:

Can we just give the mulrines thing its own thread so it doesn't keep popping up in everything.

Donegal Town has a lot to offer and as of yet isn't completely spoiled.

Lets face it Tourism in the county is on its last legs, Planning or lack of it has sorted that out but Donegal has the opportunity to become another Killarney without hopefully the commercialism that Kerry has taken on.

Talk of Manafacturing Jobs anywhere in Donegal is a red herring as any company, local or international shall only now set up for the duration of grant aid etc. Politically its expedient short term but we will see these companies go too.

Donegal had unrivalled scenery with people who loved this, its inhabitants and charm. This is being lost on a daily basis and currently it is the only resource that cannot be shipped off to Morrocco or wherever.

Its not just Northern Ireland residents Holiday homes that are the problem. Many Holiday Homes are built locally by local developers and landowners who see the quick buck. Many Germans, French and Americans expect the weather but the Donegal Failte has deteriorated along with the landescape.

Each and everyone of us in Donegal need to loose the cynicism and regain what has made us popular for years... a bit of the old Donegal Charm and welcome. Could anyone on the Boards really sell Donegal anymore to foreign visitors.

Good planning will only come when we stop voting in Section 4 councillors etc.

Well said Donegalman1. Tourists don't come to Donegal for modern shopping centers, apartment blocks, office buildings, & high prices. They come for the sights, sounds, & the people! So we need to keep the things that made the tourists come, but we face many of the same problems as the rest of the country, including steep prices, and poor access to the county.

Tis funny I can rent a nice flat in sunny Flordia, Spain, or Italy, cheaper than renting a house in the country in Donegal. You'd think with all these fecking holiday homes it be cheaper to rent the feckers.

The other thing we need is easier access to the county. One day my dream of a dual-carrigeway connecting Dublin-Sligo-Letterkenny-Derry will happen! Feck, even one connecting Dublin-Derry would get me home quicker. Just hope I'll still young enough to drive if its ever build. Too bad the current fit of road-building wasn't done in the '80's when it could have been done at a fraction of today's cost ... ack I'm rambling!

But, speaking of prices when I was home over Xmas I was surprised at how much cheaper drink was in Derry. I'm surprised no-one has started bringing tourists from the Republic there for a drinking & smoking weekends?

smashey

donegalman1 wrote:

Could anyone on the Boards really sell Donegal anymore to foreign visitors.

I could, and I would be totally aggressive and selfish about it by selling it at the expense of other counties.

bettlebrox

Interesting Editorial in The Donegal Times:

http://www.donegaltimes.com/2006/03_2/frontpage.html

Usually, they seem to bang on about we need development and we need it now. But, I agree with them on this editorial: "Let’s Get it Right!".

And their latest Editorial, titled "Not at any cost":

http://www.donegaltimes.com/2006/04_1/frontpage.html

I do agree that whatever development happens it has to be close to the town and complement the existing town center and not compete with it. This means more parking will be needed near the town and traffic anaysis needs to be done to make sure whatever is built doesn't lead to more traffic congestion.

Last time I was home traffic was backed up the Main Street, all the way to the National School, because of a bus and a truck couldn't get around the Diamond because of double parked cars. Friggin' unbelieveable! So if a new development is done in the town the Gardi are going to have to be allowed to police the traffic (and give out those bloody parking tickets) to stop the place from becoming one solid traffic jam. Half the time I'm home I don't drive anywhere near the town bcause the traffic is so bad (not that Ballybofey or Letterkenny are any better).

byte

Well, that Dunnes Stores site isn't that far from the town centre. I'd think that because the town centre is poor at handling traffic, that having a few retail areas outside it, will keep congestion down.

I do agree regarding the double parking particularly outside the Abbey Hotel, which is also where the Bus Stop is. Something should be done about that.

Somebody somewhere has/had plans for where Magee's factory is, and surrounds, though I haven't heard much about it in a while. And also the Mart, and whether or not they'll sell it (mart committee), and if they do, who they'll sell it to.

ednwireland

byte wrote:

Somebody somewhere has/had plans for where Magee's factory is, and surrounds, though I haven't heard much about it in a while. And also the Mart, and whether or not they'll sell it (mart committee), and if they do, who they'll sell it to.

keeney construction, who er is objecting to dunnes and he's tied in with tesco
the gas thing is keeneys objection is to the traffic chaos that would (allegedly) occur if dunnes built their site. i would have thought there would be more objections to keeney on traffic despite the fact they are supposed to build a road out to main street somehow and out the back to the bypass (new junction on an n road i dont think so. i just wish keeny and bennet would crawl down there respective holes and build something
i not convinced any of this will happen in my lifetime

byte

Hmm, I'm inclined to agree with you ednwireland. Too much tooing and froing, and f**k all being done.

I had heard yesterday that Keeney had intended on tossing Schooners pub to make a roadway, but couldn't as Schooners is a listed building (this is what I heard, I can't confirm if it's true). Though, if it were true, there is no way it would be allowed when there is a national school opposite the pub!

The Magee factory site is close to town centre (and close to where I work)and I think is a good place for some sort of shopping centre, though I think more thought is needed for road access.

muffler

I had to get a hard copy of the Donegal Town Development Plan a couple of days ago and even though Im not from that area I think there are some good features and proposals involved.

The plan is for the period 2004 - 2010. It costs €30 and is available on hard copy or DVD. I think its a must for anyone interested in the development of Donegal Town

The plan can also be viewed free on the Councils website here

bettlebrox

Interesting article about how what once was a lovely town in California was ruined by unplanned, overdevelopment. The article is a little soppy at the beginning, but not a bad read and a good warning of what can happen when developers and the authorities get building crazy:

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF001971/Downie/Downie02/Downie02.html

"... was destined sooner or later to be urbanized, the process need not have destroyed the valley as it did. One study has shown that all the county's growth since 1947 could easily have been fitted into thirty square miles with residential densities no greater than they are now. Instead, because development jumped from here to there and land was used inefficiently, there is a subdivision, factory or shopping center on nearly every one of the valley floor's approximately 200 square miles of once premium soil"

Obviously, I don't think Donegal Town or County could ever get that bad, but it's real easy to ruin the things that make an area good.

Any word on what's going on about the shopping centres at the moment?