Have you changed religion?

Genghis

I am curious to learn about people who change religion - why?

My curiosity is not altogether random. For the better part of the past year I have been seeing a girl that was raised CofI, moved to Methodist with her family in her teens and now attends an Evangelical Christian Church.

I myself was born, baptised and raised a Catholic. Having said that neither of my parent were very pushy on that front, and it is in more recent times (the last 2 years or so) that I have as an individual become more interested in my faith.

From conversations with my g/f, from speaking to friends of hers, and from attending a couple of hymn meetings / Sunday services, I think I can see what her Church offers. It is certainly more of a spiritual experience than Mass, comprising entirely of upbeat "Love You Jesus" hymns, and bible-driven evangelical sermons that interweave biblical text with explanation and meaning. Another element is the Testimonial, where participants are encouraged to speak out (often very emotionally) and thnk God for some help they received, or to appeal for help in something they are experiencing.

Of more concern to me, though are other elements / premises of her Church. For one, it seems that to be a member of her Church that you have been "saved" or born-again, and that you therefore have rejected God / Christ some time in your previous life, and that you accept that you are forever in danger of rejecting Him again.

I know that the Church pastor uses this "fear of being human" to interfere in the lives of his churchgoers, warning against certain career moves, expressing caution at certain relationships, discouraging certain lifestyle decisions, etc.

Another disturbing element is the widely held belief in their broad Church (which appears to embody a wide number of Evangelical and Protestant churches) that only they are true Christians, and that only they will be taken into Christs joyous and everlasting Kingdom. In fact, in my G/Fs eyes I, as a Catholic, am not a true Christian at all - though she accepts that I find that hurtful - especially as I always considered myself a Christian first, and a Catholic second (I think that way you focus on similarity across Christian faiths, and not the differences).

All of this has forced me to reflect on my Catholic faith in a new way. At some point in our relationship I know that there will be pressure on me to consider moving to her Church, and if we ever get married / have children, etc (something I would like to do), then it would (at the very basic level), make practical sense for us to attend the same Church.

However, I don't think I should simply abandon Catholicism. Catholic priests and schools educated me, set me on my course to a happy and fulfilled life. The Catholic Church, is certainly flawed, but it is the oldest Christian Church. It is also hierarchical, which upsets new Evangelists, but somehow I would trust more the teachings of a large hierarchical Church, than one mans interpretation of the Bible, which, when mixed with dogma, could be used in a certain way.

Finally, am I better trying to meet my spiritual requirements within my existing Church, or go someplace else.

Has anyone any experience they could share with me?

samb

How extreme is this church of your g/f. Do they hold beleifs such as condemnation of gays, young earth creationism etc, and do you share these beliefs.
As a catholic you probably can largely make your own mind up on many issues such as gays (although CC offically against it), like most Irish people. Unfortunatley I fear that your g/f's views will only become more and more entrenched and unshakeable and that your children and yourself will not be able to question these beliefs without condemnation. Personally I'd run a mile now, but obvously you are fond of her:) .

bmoferrall

Genghis wrote:

Another disturbing element is the widely held belief in their broad Church (which appears to embody a wide number of Evangelical and Protestant churches) that only they are true Christians, and that only they will be taken into Christs joyous and everlasting Kingdom.

I had a brief flirtation with just such a church. I would steer well clear of any church which claims to have a monopoly on salvation. No church will be perfect.
In actual fact, the Catholic church also believes this (though they may have fudged the issue of late).

Cathecism(846) wrote:

...Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (Page 244)

I tend to gravitate towards churches that take their authority from the bible, and nowhere else. Ultimately, that's the only reliable guide (and a conscience informed by the Holy Spirit). Only by familiarising yourself with the bible can you judge whether a church is departing significantly from its core teachings. Any teachings that contradict scripture should be dismissed, nay flung aside with great force.

It is also hierarchical, which upsets new Evangelists, but somehow I would trust more the teachings of a large hierarchical Church, than one mans interpretation of the Bible, which, when mixed with dogma, could be used in a certain way.

Do you really want to entrust your destiny to another fallible human being?

Personally, I wouldn't rely on anyone else to interpret it for me (Jesus didn't use clever flowery language in the Gospels, so it's pretty easy to grasp). I would encourage you the read the book for yourself. It is, after all, only a book - no need to be intimidated by it. Of course, there are non-core issues which are open to interpretation. The Life Application Study Bible has a parallel commentary which I found very helpful in this respect (where there is a controversial topic it gives an overview of the main strands of thinking on the topic; ultimately, you have to make your own mind up on these issues, though I wouldn't start any wars over them ).

PS: I should add the obvious: Christianity states that Jesus saves, not any church!

robindch

> Has anyone any experience they could share with me?

I've been at a few Irish evangelical churches like the one you describe and I never liked what I saw. All of them spoke to a thoroughly trivial level and never conveyed anything more fulfilling than a brief shot of adrenalin. One of them was downright sinister -- tearful testimonials derived from expansive religious guilt-trips, suspicious miraculous healings, speaking-in-tongues, the indescribable "toronto blessing", "jesus good, jesus good, satan bad, satan bad" songs, and many more signs of despondent witlessness.

> At some point in our relationship I know that there will be
> pressure on me to consider moving to her Church

I think you're quite right there. For myself, I'd echo samb's advice, with a couple of mild provisos. If she's a teenager/early twenties, then she may be going through the usual rebellion phase and will grow out of it, and look back on this episode like the time when we all wore flares. If she's much older than her mid-twenties, then this church is quite likely to form the focus for her life and, and not only will you probably be forced to join, but your kids will be forced along also, quite possibly against their will (particularly as they grow older). As samb says, extremism, particularly exclusivist extremism, leads directly to unpleasantly confrontational situations.

If it were me in this situation -- as I was, partly around ten years ago -- I would wish her well and part as friends, and be glad that I did.

> Finally, am I better trying to meet my spiritual requirements within
> my existing Church, or go someplace else.

Read as much as you can, especially anything that your existing church may not like, for example, Daniel Dennett's new and excellent "Breaking the Spell: Religion as Natural Phenomenon" available in Hodges Figges. Then make up your own mind as to what's going on in the world.

Genghis

Thanks for all the feedback, this is really helpful.

Just on the Church she attends. I can echo some of the concerns, but I would also like to say that so far at least religion has not interfered in any way in the relationship. At the start she told me that she was of a different faith and asked me if that meant we should not start anything. I told her that it was my belief that as long as we respected each other, we'd be fine. She did expect her parents to have a problem, and while they did at first, there is absolutely no problems now - I can honestly tell you that if I were to ask them if I could marry her, they would give to me their absolute backing.

Also, while the pastor of this Church has contacted other people about their personal lives, he has never called my g/f, and she has indicated that such unwarranted intervention would be most unwelcome to her - not just about me ("walking with a non-believer", as I'd be classified), but on any personal matter. She is a very determined person, independent thinking, and not by any means an absolute advocate of her Church. (She also has a mean-devil streak in her that contrasts very nicely with the goody-two-shoes personality of some of her family and friends!)

I suppose my long term issue is dealing with two faiths?

BrianCalgary

Maybe the two of you can church shop together and find one that you both like. I was raised Anglican, became Catholic and now attend and Canadian Missionary Alliance church. However, have always considered myself Christian.

There is no perfect church, I have issues with mine in certain areas, but the good they do firmly outweighs the negative, so we continue as members.

My criteria would be 'where is the churches authority derived?', it has to be the Bible.

Is the pastor open to being corrected on his sermons using scripture to do the correction. Does the pastor see himself on a journey as he also grows in his relationship with Christ?

Most importantly is the church guided by prayer and the promping of the Holy Spirit?

All the best Genghis.

Genghis

Thanks Brian, that is an interesting journey. Just on some of your questions:

BrianCalgary wrote:

My criteria would be 'where is the churches authority derived?', it has to be the Bible.

Absolutely Yes on this on. The Bible is very much the centre piece of this church.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Is the pastor open to being corrected on his sermons using scripture to do the correction.

On the face of it, Yes

I believe that discussion is welcome - there is a midweek bible study discussion session, and Saturday evening discussion groups where the Bible's meaning is brought to bear on everyday life.

I don't know about correction. I sometimes think that discussion is encouraged only so that they can correct you.

I would have my doubts here - in two ways. To me it comes across as one mans interpretation (albeit a Pastor's) vs another. I think that you should be able to interpret the Bible as you please, and I would consider the collective guidance of an establihed Church a safer guide than a one-man local pastor.

Secondly, rather than read a Gospel, or a passage from the Bible and then use a sermon to explain it (as in Mass), this pastor starts with a Sermon and then preaches using all parts of the Bible. On Sunday he must have selected 9 or ten small passages and threaded them to make meaning. As a very large text, I would consider this a very subjective means of interpretation, as ou are taking many parts out of many contexts and using them to imply a coherent message. Without doubting his knowledge and sincerity, this is something that could potentially lead to a misinterpretation.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Does the pastor see himself on a journey as he also grows in his relationship with Christ?

He would certainly see himself in this way. In fairness he does not stand too much on authority, and he would have completed inensive study to achieve his position.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Most importantly is the church guided by prayer and the promping of the Holy Spirit?

Yes, it is very much guided by prayer and the Holy Spirit.

Asiaprod

Also, while the pastor of this Church has contacted other people about their personal lives, he has never called my g/f, and she has indicated that such unwarranted intervention would be most unwelcome to her - not just about me ("walking with a non-believer", as I'd be classified), but on any personal matter. She is a very determined person, independent thinking, and not by any means an absolute advocate of her Church. (She also has a mean-devil streak in her that contrasts very nicely with the goody-two-shoes personality of some of her family and friends!)

That being the case, I would fall back on that well quoted proverb

Love will find a way