Skin Deep

Aporia

I was going to put this in the advertising forum but chances are it won't get as half as much replys as it would here. Do you think that you and other people are affected by what we see on television ect.? Is the individual and their personality lost because they strive to be perfect?
It's easy to jump and say it is the media's fault, but who the hell cares what media puts out there? You can remain stagnant and docile, and take no responsibility for your own insecurities, but how then can you improve? I think the problem is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility.We see a sort of manufactured beauty on television or in magazines, and although it might be pleasing to the eye, most people I know aren't attracted to that. People are attracted to "flaws" that make an individual stand out.

A person can be completely wrapped up in their outward appearance, and be shallow and have a horrible personality. But what of the self-depricating, bereft, and insecure individual. Are they not also lacking an attractive personality... it almost seems like threres no connection between the interior and exterior of a person. I think the problemm is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility. Are we caught up by what ever one looks like on the outside instead of seeing the inner self? Have we become shallow and that nothing seems to matter on the inside? What do you think, do you blame the media?

WhiteWashMan

Aporia wrote:

I was going to put this in the advertising forum but chances are it won't get as half as much replys as it would here. Do you think that you and other people are affected by what we see on television ect.? Is the individual and their personality lost because they strive to be perfect?
It's easy to jump and say it is the media's fault, but who the hell cares what media puts out there? You can remain stagnant and docile, and take no responsibility for your own insecurities, but how then can you improve? I think the problem is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility.We see a sort of manufactured beauty on television or in magazines, and although it might be pleasing to the eye, most people I know aren't attracted to that. People are attracted to "flaws" that make an individual stand out.

A person can be completely wrapped up in their outward appearance, and be shallow and have a horrible personality. But what of the self-depricating, bereft, and insecure individual. Are they not also lacking an attractive personality... it almost seems like threres no connection between the interior and exterior of a person. I think the problemm is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility. Are we caught up by what ever one looks like on the outside instead of seeing the inner self? Have we become shallow and that nothing seems to matter on the inside? What do you think, do you blame the media?

no, i blame laziness. call it post modern thinking if you will.
i think too many people want a quick and easy way to lay the blame for what they percieve as their own shortcomings, on something else.

Aporia wrote:

A person can be completely wrapped up in their outward appearance, and be shallow and have a horrible personality.

why do people always assume there has to be a good and bad side? if youre fat and ugly, then you must be a beautiful person on the inside. rubbish. most people i know who are fat and ugly are horrible people with chips on their shoulders, attitudes that could sink the titanic and deep hatred for everything that they arent.
but personality and appearance are mutually exclusive, and to give a generalisation over either is pretty futile.
people just are.

Aporia wrote:

Have we become shallow and that nothing seems to matter on the inside?

define shallow.

what is it we are blaming the media for again?

Adam

Aporia wrote:

I was going to put this in the advertising forum but chances are it won't get as half as much replys as it would here. Do you think that you and other people are affected by what we see on television ect.? Is the individual and their personality lost because they strive to be perfect?
It's easy to jump and say it is the media's fault, but who the hell cares what media puts out there? You can remain stagnant and docile, and take no responsibility for your own insecurities, but how then can you improve? I think the problem is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility.We see a sort of manufactured beauty on television or in magazines, and although it might be pleasing to the eye, most people I know aren't attracted to that. People are attracted to "flaws" that make an individual stand out.

A person can be completely wrapped up in their outward appearance, and be shallow and have a horrible personality. But what of the self-depricating, bereft, and insecure individual. Are they not also lacking an attractive personality... it almost seems like threres no connection between the interior and exterior of a person. I think the problemm is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility. Are we caught up by what ever one looks like on the outside instead of seeing the inner self? Have we become shallow and that nothing seems to matter on the inside? What do you think, do you blame the media?

I think someone stole someone elses words...

The OP

Aporia wrote:

I was going to put this in the advertising forum but chances are it won't get as half as much replys as it would here. Do you think that you and other people are affected by what we see on television ect.? Is the individual and their personality lost because they strive to be perfect?
It's easy to jump and say it is the media's fault, but who the hell cares what media puts out there? You can remain stagnant and docile, and take no responsibility for your own insecurities, but how then can you improve? I think the problem is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility.We see a sort of manufactured beauty on television or in magazines, and although it might be pleasing to the eye, most people I know aren't attracted to that. People are attracted to "flaws" that make an individual stand out.

A person can be completely wrapped up in their outward appearance, and be shallow and have a horrible personality. But what of the self-depricating, bereft, and insecure individual. Are they not also lacking an attractive personality... it almost seems like threres no connection between the interior and exterior of a person. I think the problemm is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility. Are we caught up by what ever one looks like on the outside instead of seeing the inner self? Have we become shallow and that nothing seems to matter on the inside? What do you think, do you blame the media?

Nice piece. I love copy and paste....

riptide

WhiteWashMan wrote:

define shallow.

what is it we are blaming the media for again?

Aporia. nobody is 'shallow'. Everyone is deep, just how people open up to others and the way they they react to others.

So where did you copy this anyways.

Mexicola

Aporia wrote:

I was going to put this in the advertising forum but chances are it won't get as half as much replys as it would here.

Sure why not try and sell us a car while you're at it...

Binomate

Sounds like a fat chick tbh.

Aporia

no, i blame laziness. call it post modern thinking if you will.
i think too many people want a quick and easy way to lay the blame for what they percieve as their own shortcomings, on something else.

Did I not make it clear that I wasn't blaming the media. I said it twice to highlight it as an important factor in my agruement. ''I think the problem is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility.'' (this might also be a answer to some of those who were simply arraigning) Where in my post did I blame the media?

What I was trying to say was that if you blame the media, then you are giving the media control. And if you give the media control, then you are personally setting that as your standard, so of course you won't feel good about yourself until you look like that covergirl model. You blame laziness and I have to agree with you, laziness is exactly what it is. It's like the overweight man suing McDonald's for making him overweight. How ludicrous is that? Yes, McDonald's marketed that burger to him, but he is an individual capable of making choices. Capable of deciding to gorge out on Big Mac's, or eat a nice salad instead. Was the man influence by McDonald's to eat that Big Mac, of course he was! That's the art of advertising. But nonetheless, it is not McDonald's to blame for the man's demise.

why do people always assume there has to be a good and bad side? if youre fat and ugly, then you must be a beautiful person on the inside. rubbish. most people i know who are fat and ugly are horrible people with chips on their shoulders, attitudes that could sink the titanic and deep hatred for everything that they arent.
but personality and appearance are mutually exclusive, and to give a generalisation over either is pretty futile.
people just are.

So you think that the people completely wraped up by their exterior, obsessed with their outer apperance could have a ''good'' personality? If their priorities lie in their apperance I doubt that very much. If you can't grasp what I'm trying to articulate think of an ''ugly person'' that's completely obseessed with their apperance or the other way around.

what is it we are blaming the media for again?

Like I said before I clearly wasn't.

Aporia

fade_to_grey wrote:

I think someone stole someone elses words...

Oh, even though I already explaied myself in my pervious post I just noticed there the second time I mentioned that point, I made a typo. I didn't know the copy and paste function could make typos. Talk about people being so quick to judge and not only that but also jumping to conclusions.

Here's another perfect example...

Sounds like a fat chick tbh.

Wow, someone makes a thread about how, when it comes to superficiality, people point the finger at the media rather than take the responsibility for their own actions and they get labled as a ''fat chick''. That just shows that you either A. didn't understand the thread in the first place or B. didn't even bother reading it. Well done.

Binomate

Aporia wrote:

Well done.

Thanks.

ivan087

so.....are you fat or what:cool:

if we were all so caught up with good looks then why are there so many ugly people hooking up and getting married. people strive for perfection. girls look at pretty girls in mags, guys look at cool cars. its fantasy. its human nature. i think, like a lot of people, the really good looking people tend to be the biggest bores. the less goodlooking the more you have to pump up your personality. of course this reaches an extreme with the 'bubbly fat girl'...

Archeron

Can you re-phrase this question?

Aporia

Can you re-phrase this question?

If you're refering to the topic question - I asked allot of questions but I guess the foremost question I'm asking here is; do you blame the society we live in or the media for superficiality?

simu

Aporia wrote:

If you're refering to the topic question - I asked allot of questions but I guess the foremost question I'm asking here is; do you blame the society we live in or the media for superficiality?

Interesting idea I read somewhere the other day: Living in a modern, urban setting, the average person is surrounded by far more people than say, a rural village dweller in the Middle Ages. Because it's not possible to talk to all these people, all you have to form an opinion on them is their looks. So, blame urbanisation and the increase in population?

acri

I think it's inavoidable to be manipulated by the media and trends. I mean, my girlfriend, i think she's the most beutiful (possibley spelt that wrong) girl ive ever met, but she's quite heavy, and as a result, she thinks shes ugly. I think that because of this image of beauty projected by the media, she thinks she's ugly, that all men want women thin with big breasts when it's quite the opposite. She's not one to be easily led though, she is her own woman with her own opinions, but I don't think it's possible to escape such things as the ideal appearence.

Another example is myself. I want to be my own person, but I also want a social life. I think the media (music in this case) defines what kind of social life one has. I don't like a lot of the people that go to places such as Fibbers or Dorans, but they're the only places that would accept a person such as myself. It may be all part in the search for ones self, but I don't like it, and I feel the media plays a big part in it.

WhiteWashMan

Aporia wrote:

Did I not make it clear that I wasn't blaming the media. I said it twice to highlight it as an important factor in my agruement. ''I think the problem is not the media, but it is in the society that sympathizes with a mentality so quick to cast blame instead of taking responsibility.'' (this might also be a answer to some of those who were simply arraigning) Where in my post did I blame the media?.

where in my post did i say you blamed the media.

which would lead me to believe that you (and i quote you here)

Aporia wrote:

didn't understand the thread in the first place .

in the first place.

Aporia wrote:

You blame laziness and I have to agree with you, laziness is exactly what it is.

to be honest, what i am saying and what you are saying are two comepletely different things.

Aporia wrote:

So you think that the people completely wraped up by their exterior, obsessed with their outer apperance could have a ''good'' personality? If their priorities lie in their apperance I doubt that very much. If you can't grasp what I'm trying to articulate think of an ''ugly person'' that's completely obseessed with their apperance or the other way around. .

no, i said that the way you lok and the person you are are not connected.
you appear to have a very black and white approach to who and what people are.
and there are two things wrong with that.
the first is that people are people. you cannot catagorise them becuase youre generalisations just dont ring true. you can go and round up all the fat people, and according to you, they all have jolly personalities. round aup all the skinny women, and they will all be lifeless shells interested only in the latest rimmel product and prada handbags.
the second thing that wrong with what youa re saying is that the idea or notion of personality, of appearance is completely subjective, and i certainly dont think you are qualified to start telling people they are obsessed with anything.

i ask you, what is wrong with having pride in your appearance, and at what point or line does someone go into this 'obsessed' place?

i mean, if i shower before i go out and put on ome aftershave and try and look respectable, am i obsessed? perhaps if i iron a shirt, am i more on the long road to being a vacuous individual without merit?
or what if i get plastic surgery?
is that the point that you deem me unworthy to breath the same air as you?

Aporia wrote:

Oh, even though I already explaied myself in my pervious post I just noticed there the second time I mentioned that point, I made a typo. I didn't know the copy and paste function could make typos. Talk about people being so quick to judge and not only that but also jumping to conclusions.

well, you appear quite judgmental...

Aporia wrote:

Wow, someone makes a thread about how, when it comes to superficiality, people point the finger at the media rather than take the responsibility for their own actions and they get labled as a ''fat chick''. That just shows that you either A. didn't understand the thread in the first place or B. didn't even bother reading it. Well done.

you asked a question, i answered it.
according to you all skinny people are obsessed with themselves, have no personality. i simply countered that by saying i know a lot of fat people who i wouldnt bother talking to.

and the fact that you even wrote the above quote shows me that

Aporia wrote:

you either A. didn't understand the thread in the first place or B. didn't even bother reading it. Well done.

by the way, sarcasm is a high level of humour. you however use it compeltely out of context. hint.

Aporia wrote:

If you're refering to the topic question - I asked allot of questions but I guess the foremost question I'm asking here is; do you blame the society we live in or the media for superficiality?.

define superficiality.

would me wanting to go out with a blonde chick with fabulous bouncy breasts, fine legs and an ass that wont quit, make me superficial.
or does it make me wishful.

or, if i actually wont go out with a woman who doesnt have these qualities, does that just make me picky, and probably lonely?

or is superficiality just a makey uppy word that fat chicks, who cant get a guy and need to put down others to make themselves feel better, use in order to make people think there is something wrong with people who look after their appearance?

Archeron

Aporia wrote:

If you're refering to the topic question - I asked allot of questions but I guess the foremost question I'm asking here is; do you blame the society we live in or the media for superficiality?

Whose superficiality are you talking about here? Mine? Yours? I personally dont think that there is a problem with superficiality. Yes, the media can suggest to us what they think should be the image of beauty, but there are very few people out there who actually think that these levels are acheivable by anyone except those who do it professionally. (and please do not start talking about impressionable teeneage girls, I mean society as a whole, not one select group)
As whitewashman said, I would also like a big bouncy blonde to while away her hours in my company, but that doesnt make me superficial. There are other tenets that are vital as well. Human beings are genetically programmed to feel attracted to those who look like they would make a good partner to help spawn their offspring.
If I, on purely genetic grounds, had the option to partner with an athletic, attractive healthy woman, or an overweight, pale women who looks unhealthy, naturally, to give my children the best possible chance, I will want them to inherit the healthy traits of the healthy woman, and would be pre-disposed to picking her first. I think if you need something to blame for supposed superficiality, then blame the human genetic code which believes in the idea of survival of the fittest.
The glossy magazines are only making what they can of these percieved healthy bodies now that we've progressed enough to be able to daub them with makeup and wrap them in fancy clothes. The basic tenets of attraction are essentially the same as they always have been, regardless of what color eyeliner she's wearing or how big her Prada handbag is. Okay, ideal body size has changed over time (e.g. in the middle ages, Roly Polies were considered the height of attraction) but thats more a reflection of the general wealth, health and education of the particular society in question.
On the other hand, its not an ideal world, so i dont get to "choose" the beautiful buxom woman (DAMN!) so i will go for realisitic hopes instead. There is no point in trying to love an empty husk of a person who has beatiful skin and a wonderous body, but the personality of a pond snail. We are only "superficial" as you say with those we dont know.We judge people we dont know by the way they project themselves to us through their outward appearance.
Even at this, I dont thing superficial is the correct word to use, as we are using the only facts about the person in question that are available to us. This is not superficial. When we get to know people through our daily lives, looks become less and less important and the inner person is what comes to the fore.This is the reason we are told to never judge a book by its cover as its important to judge every aspect of a person, not just their looks.
What exactly is your definition of superficial? If I may suggest that you yourself are being quite superficial in suggesting that people have only one thing on their mind, and thats to find a model to share their life with. Its extremely unfair to presume that this is the general consensus of the population at large.
Have you been taken in by these media outlets that suggest that this is how you should live your life? I havent, in fact I know nobody who has, so what gives rise to this question? I have realistic expectations in life, and I am quite sure that the person I settle down with will be similar to me. An average person, with (i hope) a pleasant personality, some things in common with me, and a common goal in life. See how superficial looks dont figure there? Not in the real world anyway. If people insist on trying to live their lives as the glossy mags dictate then they will never know true happiness and will always be asking why everybody is so superficial. EVERYBODY is not superficial, only those who choose to be, and they are the people who think that looks are the most important aspect of a person. Do you want to spend your time around these people? I sure as hell dont. Yes it would be great to spend my time with a big giant room full of playboy bunnies, but if the number of bristles on their rimmel mascara brush becomes a more important subject than, for example, society/politics/insert whatever interests you yourself here, then the relationship is hardly likely to last any amount of time.
So no, I dont blame anybody for superficiality in our society except those few who choose to live like this. The rest of us will potter about in the real world making what we can of life for ourselves and knowing that the images of beauty portrayed to us are pretty much unachievable. Take those beautiful images more as suggestions for your life than rules.

WhiteWashMan

jesus.

use the enter key. it makes paragraphs...

Siogfinsceal

depends on wether you are a sheep or not!! Im so so sick of people blaming th emedia - oh thats why I was anorexic I wanted to look like x , oh theres such pressure to be thin from who???? people who carry on like that and are obsessed with what the media show them are their own worst enemy - its not the media telling you you have to look like that - its the voice in your head! personally I would hate to look like everyone else! I value my individuality which I feel is reflected in my clothes, my thoughts, etc. I strive to achieve my own idea of perfect not anyone elses

LegacyUser

Aporia wrote:

A person can be completely wrapped up in their outward appearance, and be shallow and have a horrible personality. But what of the self-depricating, bereft, and insecure individual. Are they not also lacking an attractive personality... it almost seems like threres no connection between the interior and exterior of a person.

Mmmm, I think you have just described me. I am very confident in my personality, but sometimes I feel that if I don't loose weight, or have the best hair style, or the most stylish clothes, that I will be invisible to the world.
A couple of years ago I had an amazing figure, and the world seemed to be at my feet, everything was going amazingly.
After my degree year, I had upped the weight a bit, and without noticing it, I had stoppped really taking care of my appearance, and it seemed as if no one noticed me quite so much. From being one of the the main characters in the class, I had slipped into the background.

I realise this is insanely shallow, and could be all in my head, and if I could click a switch and change my attitude then I would. But for now, I can't help feeling that no matter how smart or talented, appearances play a big role in how far you can go in life.



*I am ready for the outraged boardster bashing

Siogfinsceal

sillysausage thats fair enough and its what I was trying to say. If you feel better when you have lost a bit of weight and wear good clothes etc then fair play to you! At least you did instead of sitting around whinging like plenty do? Im the same I dress well, I wear make up etc as it makes me feel good but its because its what I like nothing to do with what the media portrays!

WhiteWashMan

sillysausage wrote:

Mmmm, I think you have just described me. I am very confident in my personality, but sometimes I feel that if I don't loose weight, or have the best hair style, or the most stylish clothes, that I will be invisible to the world.

oxymoron?

sillysausage wrote:

I realise this is insanely shallow, and could be all in my head, and if I could click a switch and change my attitude then I would. But for now, I can't help feeling that no matter how smart or talented, appearances play a big role in how far you can go in life.

why is this shallow to want to look good?

its all well and good spouting opinions, but why do you hold them? unless theres a reference as a guide, then it means nothing.

LegacyUser

WhiteWashMan wrote:

oxymoron?



why is this shallow to want to look good?

its all well and good spouting opinions, but why do you hold them? unless theres a reference as a guide, then it means nothing.

I am not spouting opinions, I am speaking from experience.

A reference guide - Well I can only blame the media for how I feel to a certain extent - most of how I feel is made up of how peoples behaviour toward me changed when my appearance changed, and how I see the 'slim and good looking' folk being treated by those around them.

I don't think looks alone are enough to see you succeed in life, but I also don't feel that smarts alone are enough.

I honestly think that in order to truly succeed in this world a combinations of smarts and above average appearance is needed.

LegacyUser

WhiteWashMan wrote:

oxymoron?
.

It is possible to be confident in your personality, and not quite as confident in your appearance.

Femelade

oh my god, this thread just gave me a head ache

Siogfinsceal

i think you post just clarifys that society are the ones treating you different when you changed your appearance - isnt the media then just portraying society? we dont have loads of women dying to be thin and pretty because of the girls from desperate housewives for example - the girls in that show look pretty and were cast because that is what most of the women in society want to look like!
as for advertising - naturally they will prey on our insecurities to sell products - beauty products, perfume, fashion but it is because those insecurities are already present in society that they were able to do that. Dont blame the media for showing pictures of thin and beautifukl women -blame society. personally I think many of these women are beautiful but that doesnt mean im going to change myself. I dress in clothes that appeal to me not what I see in a magazine as id hate to arrive at a club and see other girls in the same style of clothes. I wear make up to work as I look better iwht it on so I feel better and happier. Not saying in minging without it but its my choice to wear it. I dont put on weight as I excercise a lot and I think I look fine as I am - it wouldnt suit me to weigh more. However Im damn sure that if I dropped 3 stone like some idiots out there Im not going to look like a celeb - im going to look awful. Once I think I look okay then im happy enough dont really give a damn what they media shows or what other people think. people will respect you if you are positive and happy with yourself. as you have said yourself you feel better when you have lost weight and wear nice clothes as you act more positive and people react to that

Somnus

When you think about it its really jsut up to the person themselves. Some people would be influenced by what they see but others wouldnt... Althought the media does seem to lean towards "perfect" people

WhiteWashMan

sillysausage wrote:

I am not spouting opinions, I am speaking from experience.

A reference guide - Well I can only blame the media for how I feel to a certain extent - most of how I feel is made up of how peoples behaviour toward me changed when my appearance changed, and how I see the 'slim and good looking' folk being treated by those around them.

I don't think looks alone are enough to see you succeed in life, but I also don't feel that smarts alone are enough.

I honestly think that in order to truly succeed in this world a combinations of smarts and above average appearance is needed.

thats fine, but the question still remains...

why is it shallow to want to look good.
after all, you did say you were shallow for thinking that way.

and now you are saying that its part of life to want to look good. are you saying that part of loife is to be 'shallow', as you define it?

or are you going off on a tangent...?

LegacyUser

WhiteWashMan wrote:

thats fine, but the question still remains...

why is it shallow to want to look good.
after all, you did say you were shallow for thinking that way.

and now you are saying that its part of life to want to look good. are you saying that part of loife is to be 'shallow', as you define it?

or are you going off on a tangent...?

Sorry, i misunderstood your original question.

I do think its shallow to be so consumed by a need and a want to look good.
For a desire to look good to effect your outlook on life, or for your appearance to effect the way that people react to you - this is shallow - but this is also the way of the world.
Basically,what I am saying, in the simplest of terms, is - just because everybody does it, doesn't make it right.

My desire to look good is somewhat shallow, and just because a huge chunk of the population are obsessed with their appearances, and the appearances of others doesn't make it any less shallow.

Personality, intelligence, nature etc - these 'should' be the factors that effect how we are treated, and how we behave, but generally, they don't... why? Because they can't be seen from across the room.

Siogfinsceal

sillysausage its not shallow to want to look good - and you do look good seen your foto. Nothing wrong with wanting to look your best and putting some effort into your appearance. Its wrong when people get obsessed with wanting to look like what they see in the media. Lets face it I aint never going to look like Kate Moss no matter how hard I try ;-)

LegacyUser

Siogfinsceal wrote:

sillysausage its not shallow to want to look good - and you do look good seen your foto. Nothing wrong with wanting to look your best and putting some effort into your appearance. Its wrong when people get obsessed with wanting to look like what they see in the media. ;-)

Its not wrong to want to look nice, but it is wrong when your appearance effects how well you do in life and how you are treated by your peers!

WhiteWashMan

sillysausage wrote:

I do think its shallow to be so consumed by a need and a want to look good.
For a desire to look good to effect your outlook on life, or for your appearance to effect the way that people react to you - this is shallow - but this is also the way of the world.
Basically,what I am saying, in the simplest of terms, is - just because everybody does it, doesn't make it right.

hold on. youre telling me what is shallow, but not why you think its shallow.

but to distil what you have said down, are you saying that to want to get a positive reaction from people, you are shallow?
how is this different from say, being nice to someone, just to get a positive effect?
are you saying its shallow to want to be accepted?
or is it only to be accepted, by conforming to some media led vision of what beauty is?

and youre right, just becuase everyone does it, does not make it right, but what makes it wrong?

sillysausage wrote:

My desire to look good is somewhat shallow, and just because a huge chunk of the population are obsessed with their appearances, and the appearances of others doesn't make it any less shallow..

again, what is your definition of shallow?

sillysausage wrote:

Personality, intelligence, nature etc - these 'should' be the factors that effect how we are treated, and how we behave, but generally, they don't... why? Because they can't be seen from across the room.

thats a silly arguement. why should people be judged on personality, intellegence and nature?
why cant i judge someone on looks?

because you say so?

WhiteWashMan

sillysausage wrote:

Its not wrong to want to look nice, but it is wrong when your appearance effects how well you do in life and how you are treated by your peers!

thats an entirely different argument, and i might add its also not true.

if i were selling bikinis, and i wanted to make an advertisment. do you think its shallow of me to hire a woman with large breasts, pouting lips, and lovely flowing locks?

or do you think i will sell more if i portray my product as one worn by shaven headed fat lesbians?

people want to look good becuase it makes them feel good. whether you are treated differently in life becuase of how you look is entirely a different argument.
but you know what, i dont feel shallow for wanting a gorgeous partner, rather than a small fat ugly chick.

pbsuxok1znja4r

^Okay, but how does the small, ugly, fat chick feel about it? I think that's what some people in the thread have been getting at...It's a way of classing people, and to an extent the "small, ugly and fat" chicks/guys of our society become second class citizens, from a social POV, anyway.

LegacyUser

WhiteWashMan wrote:

if i were selling bikinis, and i wanted to make an advertisment. do you think its shallow of me to hire a woman with large breasts, pouting lips, and lovely flowing locks?

or do you think i will sell more if i portray my product as one worn by shaven headed fat lesbians?

.

I am not talking about advertising or marketing campaigns, I am talking about progression, in terms of career and the likes.

I honestly think that if I have a 1st level honours degree, and happen to look like Kelly brook, and have an up to the minute hairstyle and outfit, that I will get 'the job' before a short, fat, not so attractive person, who has the exact same qualifications, experience, and even the same personality.

I think it IS shallow for looks to play such a huge part in big decisions, like job placement, etc.

Shallow (my definition) is liking someone more because of their appearance, shallow is placing too high a value on physical appearances, shallow is valuing appearances more so then personality.

Aporia

where in my post did i say you blamed the media.

Well you said -

what is it we are blaming the media for again?

You mentioned this but are you referring to people in general, if in that case, I misunderstood the context of the question.

to be honest, what i am saying and what you are saying are two comepletely different things.

No we're not we both actually agree that it's the insecure individuals, that down to pure laziness, blame the media.

You said the way you look has no impact on you're personallity whatsoever but think about this - if you were born with supermodel looks as opposed to a indivduial with ugly features one is going to get poisitive attention from their looks the other isn't and this will have an impact on them.

you appear to have a very black and white approach to who and what people are.

No I don't. I'm meerly stating that you're apperance does infact have an impact on who you are. This impact varies from person to person and everyone has a different idea what an attractive apperance looks like.

you can go and round up all the fat people, and according to you, they all have jolly personalities.

Eh nope never said that. I said -

But what of the self-depricating, bereft, and insecure individual. Are they not also lacking an attractive personality... it almost seems like threres no connection between the interior and exterior of a person

You should read my posts properly in future.

i ask you, what is wrong with having pride in your appearance, and at what point or line does someone go into this 'obsessed' place?

Well I take an hour to get ready in the mornings... straighten my hair put on make-up ect. I'm not obsessed with my apperance. I think I 'm a very attractive person but I'm not obsessed. You can't deny the fact that there are people out there where there whole life is their apperance and nothing else matters.

according to you all skinny people are obsessed with themselves, have no personality. i simply countered that by saying i know a lot of fat people who i wouldnt bother talking to.

I'll just post this one more time maybe you might actually read it...

But what of the self-depricating, bereft, and insecure individual. Are they not also lacking an attractive personality... it almost seems like threres no connection between the interior and exterior of a person

There I'm refering to the ''fat/ugly'' people.

define superficiality.

Apparent rather than actual or substantial.

Have you been taken in by these media outlets that suggest that this is how you should live your life? I havent, in fact I know nobody who has, so what gives rise to this question?

That's incorrect. Of couse you have been affected by the media.
Have you ever bought a book because you read somewhere it was well worth the buy? Have you ever seen an ad on t.v. for something and thought to yourself, gee I want that?

The media, in all aspects, plays a huge role in everyone’s lives; whether you know it or not.

Advertising creates wants. Advertising is always one step ahead of the consumer. It does not mold to what the consumer wants, the consumer molds to what corporation wants to dish out. Advertising is all about manipulation. Convincing someone that this is what they want/need. It is not a liquid entity that forms to the consumer, consumers are the liquid that form to it.

And the reason why advertising is so effective, is because is leaves the consumer believing that they are in control.

Vinnie69

sillysausage wrote:

Mmmm, I think you have just described me. I am very confident in my personality, but sometimes I feel that if I don't loose weight, or have the best hair style, or the most stylish clothes, that I will be invisible to the world.
A couple of years ago I had an amazing figure, and the world seemed to be at my feet, everything was going amazingly.
After my degree year, I had upped the weight a bit, and without noticing it, I had stoppped really taking care of my appearance, and it seemed as if no one noticed me quite so much. From being one of the the main characters in the class, I had slipped into the background.

I realise this is insanely shallow, and could be all in my head, and if I could click a switch and change my attitude then I would. But for now, I can't help feeling that no matter how smart or talented, appearances play a big role in how far you can go in life.



*I am ready for the outraged boardster bashing

So now I have you sussed! If you have abandoned your appearance and weight, YOU are the one who threw her "grey knickers" on the floor on the other thread:D

LegacyUser

Vinnie69 wrote:

So now I have you sussed! If you have abandoned your appearance and weight, YOU are the one who threw her "grey knickers" on the floor on the other thread:D

I have let my appearance slide, but 'daz white' insures my undies stay bright white, without so much as a hint of grey!:D

Siogfinsceal

its the attitude and treatment from your peers that effects you rather than the media though thats my point. The media just mirrors what goes on in society. as for the point what does the 'ugly, fat chick' think? well no-one has to be ugly or fat. there are plenty of ways to lose weight, get fit etc my point is some people dont want to, others do. plenty of short fat people where I work!
Ive never seen anyone promoted in a job cos they were pretty though? Everywhere I worked they hired on qualification and suitability, they may condier how you look in terms of professionalism but not how good looking you are. but again, if you feel better when you have made the effort great!

LegacyUser

Siogfinsceal wrote:

its the attitude and treatment from your peers that effects you rather than the media though thats my point. The media just mirrors what goes on in society. as for the point what does the 'ugly, fat chick' think? well no-one has to be ugly or fat. there are plenty of ways to lose weight, get fit etc my point is some people dont want to, others do. plenty of short fat people where I work!

I agree

Siogfinsceal wrote:

Ive never seen anyone promoted in a job cos they were pretty though? Everywhere I worked they hired on qualification and suitability, they may condier how you look in terms of professionalism but not how good looking you are. but again, if you feel better when you have made the effort great!

I don't think looks alone get you the job, but you have a good looking grade A applicant, and an not so goodlooking grade A applicant, the better lookingof the two will seal the deal - in my opinion.


Like i said, looks alon is not enough, but smarts alone is no enough either - you need to have it all to really succeed

Siogfinsceal

it honestly depends. Have you ever had a female boss? In my experience a female boss will often pick the less attractive candidate as she wont like a girl who is skinnier, better loking and younger than her its bizarre but true. See it so often. One company that I worked in the girls were bitchy as I was skinnier than them purekly because while they were at home watching corrie and eating I was riding my horse every night they even used to say I was anaorexic!!
Ive also seen cases where an exeptionally pretty girl was turned down for a job because they deemed her to be too pretty i.e. they didnt think she would be professional enough or a hard worker ive heard it a few times. they thought she would be an airhead.

thank fully I dont have this problem lol
Ive also seen the old cliche where a male boss will hire a pretty secretary. For forward facin gjobs such as secretary/receptionist etc yes sometimes looks are a factor but where I am working on a phone its not really relevant - customers never see me its my personality & voice that counts.


i have a friend who is beautiful. Stunning in fact she has been asked so many times to be a model. Shes tall, great figure the works. Guys love her. She is one of the nicest people i know yet other girls are so b*tchy to her. They hate the fact that she looks like she does im always shocked at the jealousy!

LegacyUser

Siogfinsceal wrote:

i have a friend who is beautiful. Stunning in fact she has been asked so many times to be a model. Shes tall, great figure the works. Guys love her. She is one of the nicest people i know yet other girls are so b*tchy to her. They hate the fact that she looks like she does im always shocked at the jealousy!

Oh I know, I have seen this a thousand times but I think this is just another example of shallow behaviour, people taking an instant dislike to her based on her looks.

The girl never stood a chance with these guys.

mountainyman

Siogfinsceal wrote:

i have a friend who is beautiful. Stunning in fact she has been asked so many times to be a model.

No wonder they're asking, how many girls will do DV DA? Yes it is THAT kind of Model/ Actress/

Siogfinsceal wrote:

Shes tall, great figure the works. Guys love her.

No wonder they love her, how many girls will do DV DA?

Siogfinsceal wrote:

She is one of the nicest people i know yet other girls are so b*tchy to her. They hate the fact that she looks like she does im always shocked at the jealousy!

It isn't her looks; it is because after a night with 'miss terious' their boyfriends are looking for the old DV DA.

MM

Siogfinsceal

yup its crazy. the more attention she got from guys, the less the other girls liked her.It would not have been so bad if she was stuck up but shes sooo not. Good looks can be an advantage but in that sort of way..also a disadvantage.

so being pretty wont always get you the job...in fact it might stop you getting the job. never look better than the female boss lol

Vinnie69

I am sorry but I have to disagree, I've seen it too many times over the years, if you are tall and good looking, you are halfway there in an interview. Small and fat (even slightly over-weight), you are at a disadvantage

connundrum

Vinnie69 wrote:

I am sorry but I have to disagree, I've seen it too many times over the years, if you are tall and good looking, you are halfway there in an interview. Small and fat (even slightly over-weight), you are at a disadvantage

This is true, but is it wrong? Should everyone be on an equal footing in an interview situation... I don't think they can be.

A 'good looking' person will tend to have that bit more self confidence, which is immediately apparent to the interviewer. When interviewing for a job, you want to be seen to have confidence.. therefore inadvertently, the 'good looking' person has an advantage (apart from actually being good looking in the first place).

Away from the job scene though..

Aporia wrote:

Are we caught up by what ever one looks like on the outside instead of seeing the inner self? Have we become shallow and that nothing seems to matter on the inside? What do you think, do you blame the media?

Everything on the inside matters IMO, the outside is the initial barrier which will either attract/not attract you in a passing situation, that is a given. We have become somewhat obsessed with an 'ideal' of what we should be, but I reckon this is in direct relation to the unhealthy state of our health as a nation (ie. no excercise + fatty foods etc).

So we are slowly slipping down, while placing an added value on the people at the top - the sports people/models/actors. It is inevitable... when I was broke, all I could think about was money, and how much I envied people who had money. Same situation.

Blame the media? Maybe, blame our nature of one-up-man-ship too though, and blame ourselves for falling into the trap of believing everything that the media throws out.

Siogfinsceal

mmm your assuming that good looks = confidence. i know plenty of good lookign people who dont think they are good looking at all. One has no confidence despite being gorgus. Its all what you think inside. I remember in school there were average looking girls who thought they were gorgus so they acted as if they were and people treated them as if they were!! Ive noticed it a lot. Sometimes when you look at people who are seen to be gorgus they are actually not that good looking but have built themselvesup and people bought it

connundrum

Siogfinsceal wrote:

mmm your assuming that good looks = confidence. i know plenty of good lookign people who dont think they are good looking at all. One has no confidence despite being gorgus. Its all what you think inside. I remember in school there were average looking girls who thought they were gorgus so they acted as if they were and people treated them as if they were!! Ive noticed it a lot. Sometimes when you look at people who are seen to be gorgus they are actually not that good looking but have built themselvesup and people bought it

Sorry, I was generalising a bit there. But generally, if a person is good looking they do tend to have a bit more self confidence.. and if they don't then they should learn how to fake it.. quickly

WhiteWashMan

sillysausage wrote:

Shallow (my definition) is liking someone more because of their appearance, shallow is placing too high a value on physical appearances, shallow is valuing appearances more so then personality.

but its not shallow to value personality over appearance?

i dont understand this. you put more importance on one characteristic than another? how can you?
and here you define it as someone who thinks this about other people. in your earlier post, you call youself shallow. does that mean you think that you value your appearance over your personality?

it makes no sense.

or are you just trying to say that shallow is anyone who thinks looks are more important thanpersonality?

what about money?
is it also shallow to want money as well?

becuase i can see where this is going...

Aporia wrote:

No we're not we both actually agree that it's the insecure individuals, that down to pure laziness, blame the media.

actually, i was talking about post modern thought being lazy, not individuals.
perhpas thats a conversation for the philosophy forum though...

Aporia wrote:

You said the way you look has no impact on you're personallity whatsoever but think about this - if you were born with supermodel looks as opposed to a indivduial with ugly features one is going to get poisitive attention from their looks the other isn't and this will have an impact on them.

not at all. i dont think i said that. i do think the way you look will have an effect on how you develope asa a person. what i did say was that i dont think yo ucan just catagorise people and say that all fat epople are jolly and all thin people are shallow, which was what you were insuating.

Aporia wrote:

Well I take an hour to get ready in the mornings... straighten my hair put on make-up ect. I'm not obsessed with my apperance. I think I 'm a very attractive person but I'm not obsessed. You can't deny the fact that there are people out there where there whole life is their apperance and nothing else matters.

so what?
this makes them shallow?

so by that definition, if your whole life revolves around something you are indeed shallow.
so people who work hard to earn money are shallow.
people who dedicate their lives to god, are shallow.
im not sure i follow your logic to be honest.


perhaps you can be a bit more clear and concise?

Aporia wrote:

Quote:
define superficiality.

Apparent rather than actual or substantial.

im sorry, that means nothing. so someone who is beautiful on the outside yet horrible on the inside?
does that mean people who are ugly and fat, yes beautiful on the inside are also shallow.

i think it does.

Aporia wrote:

Advertising creates wants. Advertising is always one step ahead of the consumer. It does not mold to what the consumer wants, the consumer molds to what corporation wants to dish out. Advertising is all about manipulation. Convincing someone that this is what they want/need. It is not a liquid entity that forms to the consumer, consumers are the liquid that form to it.

And the reason why advertising is so effective, is because is leaves the consumer believing that they are in control

oh dear. psych 101.

come on, youve spouted out cliched catch phrases, and to come out withthe classic stereotypical negative misconception on advertising is classic.

you are obviously doing economics 1st year in UCD or something.
i appluade your efforts, but if you are going to start a debate, come to the party with some thoughts on the matter. im not interested in trading verbal garbage, but if you have an interesting point of view, id like to hear it.

the fact of the matter is that you started off this debate trying to say that the media is not to blame for the shallowness of people, and yet have come 180 degrees around to blame advertising for how people are.

and thats fine, i have no problem with people changing their minds or opinions.

by the way, since this is a debate based on everything subjective, there is no right or wrong answer. personally i dont care if you think im shallow becuase i want a partner that is beautiful, buxom and sexy. i mean, if you dont fit that criteria, i wont be going out with you. and my loss as well im sure. but that does not give you or anyone else the right to judge me for what i feel is important in life.
and if i think you are ugly (and im sure you arent) then its not a dislike thing, its a statement of fact based on my own subjective opinoin.

the one thing that everyone seems to think is when i call someone ugly, they immediately think of physical attributes. i think ugly comes in many shapes and many sizes. and i believe that beauty always shines through.