"Not tonight lad's" "go ahead girls" The Law

tom-thebox

Hello

I am writing a pice for a website on door policys and the law, could anyone point me in the correct direction.

Can doormen and bouncers still refuse people at the door of clubs and pubs for no reason?

Do the house have the right to refuse?

Where can people complain to?


Any help welcomed.

hullaballoo

This comes down to right of admission. Pubs and clubs are entitled to reserve the right to decide who enters their premises.

Door men are given the job of trying to get the right mix in the club or pub ie they don't want too many men and too few women and vice versa. Now, naturally there is an argument to say that they could oftentimes use better methods, and frankly, I find many doormen rude beyond reason.

The point is that they have every right to decide who gets in and who doesn't. Importantly, under the Equal Status Act 2003, they don't have to give a reason either.

tom-thebox

Thanks mate.

Thirdfox

"The point is that they have every right to decide who gets in and who doesn't. Importantly, under the Equal Status Act 2003, they don't have to give a reason either."

So could it be possible to have a "whites only" nightclub? Surely the Equal Status Act 2003 wouldn't protect that sort of behaviour?

hullaballoo

Well, I don't think that sort of thing would work in practice. I mean, there's always potential for someone to take a case against them for something that's obviously discriminatory on one of the grounds covered by the act, but door policy has to be tight enough to avoid trouble etc.

There's a public policy issue here of course.

besty

hullaballoo wrote:

Well, I don't think that sort of thing would work in practice. I mean, there's always potential for someone to take a case against them for something that's obviously discriminatory on one of the grounds covered by the act, but door policy has to be tight enough to avoid trouble etc.

There's a public policy issue here of course.

Exactly, I would imagine such a flagrantly discriminatory policy such as racial filtering would be challenged in the courts post haste but the usual "excuses" given at the door would be reasonably difficult to dispute in a court (as long as the doorman isn't a complete fool in his reason given.)

Thirdfox

But would sexual filtering be a reasonable reason? "Men only" or (more likely) "Women wanted" signs would be just as unacceptable in my view... that's life I suppose. *sigh*

seamus

Thirdfox wrote:

But would sexual filtering be a reasonable reason? "Men only" or (more likely) "Women wanted" signs would be just as unacceptable in my view... that's life I suppose. *sigh*

Indeed.

The main issue with discrimination is proof. "Ladies free before 12" is an obvious one, and although you see it less these days, it still exists.*

In order to prove that you were being discriminated against because of your gender, you would need to show for definite that the club had a policy of refusing men and allowing in women. That is, if a group of lads walked in five minutes after you got refused, then your argument goes out the window.

What clubs do nowadays tends to be transparent discrimination - an unwritten door policy of not letting in anyone who looks under 21/black/gay/etc, without actually saying the reason.
However, nine times out of ten if the bouncer says "Not tonight lads" or "Members only", it's not because you're underage, male or otherwise grouped.

The house always has the right to refuse. The law only deals with the reason of refusal, not your right to enter a public house.

*But men tend not to complain about sexist matters - look at the ASAI, and you'll see many complaints from women about sexist ads, but few or none from men, even though men are easily the most discriminated against group in advertising.

Reku

seamus wrote:

Indeed.

The main issue with discrimination is proof. "Ladies free before 12" is an obvious one, and although you see it less these days, it still exists.*

In order to prove that you were being discriminated against because of your gender, you would need to show for definite that the club had a policy of refusing men and allowing in women. That is, if a group of lads walked in five minutes after you got refused, then your argument goes out the window.

What clubs do nowadays tends to be transparent discrimination - an unwritten door policy of not letting in anyone who looks under 21/black/gay/etc, without actually saying the reason.
However, nine times out of ten if the bouncer says "Not tonight lads" or "Members only", it's not because you're underage, male or otherwise grouped.

The house always has the right to refuse. The law only deals with the reason of refusal, not your right to enter a public house.

*But men tend not to complain about sexist matters - look at the ASAI, and you'll see many complaints from women about sexist ads, but few or none from men, even though men are easily the most discriminated against group in advertising.

Some of my sister's friends have been refused entry to 'The George' (spelling?) for "not looking gay enough" according to the bouncers. Has me baffled, how can you look/not look gay enough? (so much for the concept of GAYDAR! lol)

The reason that the "ladies free/only €x before Xpm" has died is that a man did actually launch a law suit over the fact that it was discrimination a few years ago, never heard if he was successful or not but either way the fear of a repeat probably made most nightclubs choose to avoid the risk. I remember the radio chat shows discussing it and found it funny that the claim was that it was to get women into the clubs so as to attract the men, yet the majority of callers who were upset over it were 25-35 year old single mums complaining that they weren't going to be able to go out as much. I don't think a nightclub filled with single mums is going to be that big an attraction to the average male looking for a good time.

Anyway, my view of this is that while, like any private home owner, club/pub/shop owners have the right to refuse entrance to any individual(s) they choose, they should caution staff not to give a reason as this could lead to discrimination charges, if no reason is given then there's nothing you can do about being refused access.

TapouT

tom-thebox wrote:

Hello

I am writing a pice for a website on door policys and the law, could anyone point me in the correct direction.

Can doormen and bouncers still refuse people at the door of clubs and pubs for no reason?

Do the house have the right to refuse?

Where can people complain to?


Any help welcomed.

1. yes door staff refuse people and give no reason, but thats to avoid a verbal argument. By law there must be a reason for refusing entry, after all a pub/club as a public house licence and is licenced 'to serve the public'.

2. We do however have the right to refuse admission to a premises for a number of reasons, full to capacity, your too drunk, past history of trouble on the premises etc. In the case of a past history of trouble the pub/club has an obligation to record the incident, most good clubs will either have it recorded in an incident book or keep a video tape of the incident. If your refused entery to a premises on the basis of having caused trouble there before, and the owners can't prove you have done, your solicitor will take them for a few grand for ya!.

3. Complain first to the manager/owner of the premises the next day or the earliest oppertunity and take it from there. If you receive no satisfaction from that quarter get yourself a solicitor to sue him!.

Anymore questions?.

hullaballoo

It's not the case that a reason has to be given to someone in order to refuse them drink. I am unaware of any such provision regarding entry. Surely the easiest thing to say is "you're too drunk".

Failing that, "we're too full".

cormie

TapouT wrote:

If your refused entery to a premises on the basis of having caused trouble there before, and the owners can't prove you have done, your solicitor will take them for a few grand for ya!.

3. Complain first to the manager/owner of the premises the next day or the earliest oppertunity and take it from there. If you receive no satisfaction from that quarter get yourself a solicitor to sue him!.

Anymore questions?.

Damn... I was refused entry in a place which is quite local to me because I was really drunk and starting fights. For a start I don't drink and I don't start fights either:rolleyes: This happened about 2 years ago now. I suppose it's too late at this stage. Would have been nice to sue them, I'm not one for sueing but these guys really take the piss with refusal. Another time we were accused of dealing drugs there:eek:

Imagine it went to court and they produced video tapes of me starting fights and selling drugs! lol.

hullaballoo

You could probably still sue them for that. Someone here will know what the statute of limitations says on it, afaik, it's 6 years.

TapouT

hullaballoo wrote:

It's not the case that a reason has to be given to someone in order to refuse them drink. I am unaware of any such provision regarding entry. Surely the easiest thing to say is "you're too drunk".

Failing that, "we're too full".

Yes, you can say "your too drunk", but that sometimes gets messy. Btw, a bouncer can give that as his reason without risk of discrimnation or the person being refused having a case against the premises as its seen as the staff acting with the best interests of the bar, its customers and the person (being refused). I don't remember the exact provision in law, however if anyone doubts me I can get it the next time I'm in work.

cormie

How would I proove they said it to me though? If the guy who said it has left the place etc? I haven't tried to get into the place in a looong time. Sick of Bray:rolleyes:

besty

hullaballoo wrote:

You could probably still sue them for that. Someone here will know what the statute of limitations says on it, afaik, it's 6 years.

Legal advice oh great one?

TapouT

cormie wrote:

Damn... I was refused entry in a place which is quite local to me because I was really drunk and starting fights. For a start I don't drink and I don't start fights either:rolleyes: This happened about 2 years ago now. I suppose it's too late at this stage. Would have been nice to sue them, I'm not one for sueing but these guys really take the piss with refusal. Another time we were accused of dealing drugs there:eek:

Imagine it went to court and they produced video tapes of me starting fights and selling drugs! lol.

I think you'd need a good solicitor for that one. And why are you being refused and accussed so much anyway?. If its not you, you might want to consider who your friends are!. Or go else where.

TapouT

cormie wrote:

How would I proove they said it to me though? If the guy who said it has left the place etc? I haven't tried to get into the place in a looong time. Sick of Bray:rolleyes:

I doubt there's very much you can do in that case as the person isn't there now, its highly unlikely you'll ever prove who the bouncer was and the owners will just deny the whole thing anyway.

You could go back to the door, get refused again and if they give the same reasons again ask for a copy of the incident from the security book or a copy of the security tape. You'll get laughed at, then you contact a solicitor and display a different attitude than I'm getting from you here

hullaballoo

TapouT wrote:

a bouncer can give that as his reason without risk of discrimnation

S 15 of the Equal Status Act 2000:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA8Y2000S15.html
as amended by:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA31Y2003S25.html

Btw: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=60479 (before someone reports you).

besty wrote:

Legal advice oh great one?

"Could" is not legal advice. I hope.

seamus

farohar wrote:

The reason that the "ladies free/only €x before Xpm" has died is that a man did actually launch a law suit over the fact that it was discrimination a few years ago, never heard if he was successful or not but either way the fear of a repeat probably made most nightclubs choose to avoid the risk. I remember the radio chat shows discussing it and found it funny that the claim was that it was to get women into the clubs so as to attract the men, yet the majority of callers who were upset over it were 25-35 year old single mums complaining that they weren't going to be able to go out as much. I don't think a nightclub filled with single mums is going to be that big an attraction to the average male looking for a good time.

The guy won in the end. In fairness to him, instead of just being a money-mooching sue monkey, he went through the whole thing on principle and refused any compensation. In the end he was happy with a ruling in his favour and free entry into the club.

Eru

Remember the Intoxicating liquor Act 2003, 2004 and the Regulations 2005.

In short, if the premises believes you too be intoxicated too such an extent, blah blah blah or that you are likely to cause a nuisance or trouble they can refuse. Its a crime to buy or supply alcohol to an intoxicated person.

Discimination, if they refuse you based on age (obviously over 18 only) they must have a permament age limit such as 23. Dress refusal must be in line with the premises standard dress code. Both of these must be clearly visible in or around the door or entrance.

They point blank cannot refuse because of race, colour, nationality, sex or sexuality.

Do they do it? Damn right they do.

Do they do it as much as people say? No, drunks can never accept they are drunk.

Most important: Not a criminal matter, do not try to complain to the Gardai. Its not within their scope.

Our man in Havana

Complain when their licence is up for renewal. Should get a result.

cormie

Tapout, my friends and I are respectable people, we never cause any trouble, both my friend and I who have been refused most from said place don't drink, perhaps that's why?

I'm not going to bother following up the refusal saying I was a drug dealer/fight starter, seems like a lot of hassle, but if it happens again I will take note.

You'll get laughed at, then you contact a solicitor and display a different attitude than I'm getting from you here;)

What do you mean by that

TapouT

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Remember the Intoxicating liquor Act 2003, 2004 and the Regulations 2005.

In short, if the premises believes you too be intoxicated too such an extent, blah blah blah or that you are likely to cause a nuisance or trouble they can refuse. Its a crime to buy or supply alcohol to an intoxicated person.

We have a copy of the act on the door I work. Thats why I said I'd have to wait until I get into work to get the information.

yes, complaining to the Gardai is a total waste of time.

TapouT

cormie wrote:

Tapout, my friends and I are respectable people, we never cause any trouble, both my friend and I who have been refused most from said place don't drink, perhaps that's why?

I'm not going to bother following up the refusal saying I was a drug dealer/fight starter, seems like a lot of hassle, but if it happens again I will take note.



What do you mean by that

I'm not trying to flame you, and I don't know you from other threads but the feeling I get from you here is that you'd be alittle lippy at the door.

cormie

I really don't know how you picked that up from the two initial posts I made about the situation. I generally never have problems with bouncers, it's only this one place. People I have been with sometimes have due to ID or whatever, if they start arguing I just drag them away as there is no point, once your refused once, there's not much you can do. I'm pretty much aware of my rights, if I'm refused for not wearing shoes and I see somebody else in the venue, not wearing shoes, then I know that the same rule has to apply to everybody, same with age, so I will say something. Again, this has only happened max 2 times. If no reason is given, I'm aware management has the right to refuse to serve who they please and they don't have to "sell" you something if they don't want to so there's no point arguing.

hullaballoo

I think I might have an idea which place in Bray you have the issue with. To be honest, if I'm thinking of the right place, there have been innumerable issues with it since it opened, and the door policy is a joke.

I remember going there one night and having trouble getting in because one of the bouncers said I was drunk. I'd been off the drink for about a year and a half at that stage, so I politely pointed out the improbability to them. I was forcefully removed from the premises by three of them. I asked to see if the manager would like to come and have a chat with me, and half an hour later, he did.

We managed to establish that I was not drunk, and that I hadn't been drunk in a good long time, and that I had never caused any trouble in the place, and that I didn't look the likely sort to cause trouble (debilitated by stature) and that in all probability, I was the last person you would suspect of pushing drugs. That done, I asked if there was any chance I could get in, to which he said, "not tonight". I asked why (in a civil tone, despite myself), and was told, "because your grilfriend isn't over 19", at which point, she burst into tears. Upon this reaction, he said, "ah now look, if you're going to get all upset like that, neither of you are getting in". So we left.

Our man in Havana

Do many licence renewal objections on these grounds suceed?

cormie

hullaballoo wrote:

Yup, sounds exactly like the same place. Nonsense. I heard something about their license being in jeopardy, but I think they have since done up the place, which I haven't been to and don't plan on going to either. On the girlfriend issue, had there been anyone on the premises under the age of 19, then your girlfriend was being discriminated against.

Yes, I'd also like to know do many renewal objections succeed and what is the process of objecting for one?

TapouT

Cormie like I said I don't know you, and wasn't trying to piss you off either.

Regards the place in bray, you have a number of choices really. Now that you know how easy it is to sue the place, go back in the hope your knocked back and run with his reason to your solicitor!.

Or totally avoid the kip!. Thats what I'd do.

cormie

That's what I have been doing for the past year +:) In fact, I've been avoiding Bray altogether!

If for some reason I ended up at the door again another night, would a recording of the conversation be sound evidence in court? What kind of court fees would one be looking at and what kind of reward would be given do you reckon?

hullaballoo

I was informed at some point that it is ok to have a door policy of 19s, 21s or 23s or anything you like really, but I can't find any provisions relating to it. It seems to me that when read in conjunction with The Equal Status Act 2000, the Intoxicating Liquors Acts 1988-2004 would suggest that it's illegal to have such a door policy on grounds of discrimination (or agism). Here's the legislation, see what you think:
Intoxicating Liquors Act 2003
Intoxicating Liquors Act 2004[pdf]
Equal Status Act 2000.

It's a bit of a quagmire, and I suppose you have to balance the rights of the citizen against the right of the licensee to decide who is allowed onto his premises, especially when it's a matter of security, as age can be.

Edit: cormie, you have to be very careful with recording conversations. You have to let the person you're recording know what you're doing (defeating the purpose), and it's very strongly advisable to get them to acknowledge that they know what you are doing (so that they cannot deny it later). Just make sure everything you do is directly under the CCTV cameras. Either that or just learn to live with the fact that fighting the system is very much like banging your head against a brick wall.

Our man in Havana

cormie wrote:

That's what I have been doing for the past year +:) In fact, I've been avoiding Bray altogether!

If for some reason I ended up at the door again another night, would a recording of the conversation be sound evidence in court? What kind of court fees would one be looking at and what kind of reward would be given do you reckon?

Since 2004, these matters are no longer handled by the equality authourity and are dealt with by the district courts.

You could simply object to the licence renewal and the cost would be small. The only reward would be to stop the licence from being renewed, basically putting him out of business.

rsynnott

Thirdfox wrote:

So could it be possible to have a "whites only" nightclub? Surely the Equal Status Act 2003 wouldn't protect that sort of behaviour?

There are already lots of "non-travellers only" pubs.... And some of the gay bars do sometimes make an effort to keep straight people out; I've been asked "you know this is a gay bar, right?" a good bit, and I'm gay!

Sizzler

Thirdfox wrote:

"The point is that they have every right to decide who gets in and who doesn't. Importantly, under the Equal Status Act 2003, they don't have to give a reason either."

So could it be possible to have a "whites only" nightclub? Surely the Equal Status Act 2003 wouldn't protect that sort of behaviour?

If I may digress for a moment....how come theres a barbers shop on parnell st that says "no whites allowed" if thats the case?

Turner

Pubs and clubs can get prosecuted for serving somebody who is already drunk.

So it would be a defense for such pub/club to say "Judge in my opinion he was drunk"


Same as a Garda has a power of arrest if he thinks somebody is drunk to such an extent to render him a danger to himself or others...

Obviously open and unfortunately easilly abused.

jimi_t

Aren't you missing the simple fact?
Nightclubs reserve the right to refuse admission

Being admitted is a privilege, not a right. If they refuse you there is nothing you can do about it, unless it's exceptionally evident that they are discriminating on the basis of race - i.e. The Traveller/Pub thing - and a large, public lawsuit is taken against the venue in question. People smarting from exclusion don't want to hear it but thats the truth. Energy spent moaning about it on the web is genuinely better spent persuading everyone you can to go somewhere else.

Or setting up your own nightclub...

Turner

Very true...

And if it does go to court.....

"Judge, he was "in my opinion" extremely intoxicated and i was fearful for his safety and the safety of my less intoxicated patrons.

You will never win, just go somewhere else.

rsynnott

Sizzler wrote:

If I may digress for a moment....how come theres a barbers shop on parnell st that says "no whites allowed" if thats the case?

Really? If you're worried, bring them to the equality tribunal.

Eru

jimi_t wrote:

Aren't you missing the simple fact?
Nightclubs reserve the right to refuse admission

Being admitted is a privilege, not a right. If they refuse you there is nothing you can do about it, unless it's exceptionally evident that they are discriminating on the basis of race - i.e. The Traveller/Pub thing - and a large, public lawsuit is taken against the venue in question. People smarting from exclusion don't want to hear it but thats the truth. Energy spent moaning about it on the web is genuinely better spent persuading everyone you can to go somewhere else.

Or setting up your own nightclub...

No Im sorry but no premises can simple 'reserve the right to refuse admission'. They reserve the right to refuse you based on reasonable grounds. Its not a private premises its a public house open to the public for the purpose of socialising with other people.

The premises has a license and must act within the law.

The simple reality is they can easily cover themselves and 80% of the time they are right, you are drunk.

Story time, I was on duty and saw a bouncer turn guys away because "not tonight lads and thats it", now they came to me and I asked the bouncer why not, not because its my job or anything too do with me but I was 18 and 19 and got this **** myself. Now the bouncer then tells me that they were ejected at another time (fair reason for not allowing them). Now I convince the guys too go somewhere else, as annoying as it is theres dozens of bars around the place but if they want to push it they can call me as a Garda witness (not that I witnessed anything really). Now the doorman then told me he thought they were drug dealers and I should watch them. Where they? Hell no but he heard what I said and didnt fancy having too explain why he refused 3 perfectly polite and sober people.

Did they pursue it? what do you think? :rolleyes:

walrusgumble

if bouncers and management are so concerned with not permitting people in when they are drunk how come once you are in there they don't give a sh&t wat happens to you when people go in knock back a load of shots and decide to have a pop at someone. they are very quick to observe someone is smahed before entering but when they pose and stroll round the floor all of a sudden there clueless.

have you ever seen people lying out of it on the floor. do bouncers do anything, only if theres a fight. look at all the people who fall don step and then go to the ourts claiming compo for the fall cause they are intoxicated. how come they werent ask to leave when they were struggling to walk a straight line and getting lippy with the bar staff?