Anyone have UFH and have regrets ?

iplogger1

Sorry to be negative in the post title but we are at a critical point in deciding as to whether we will go with conventional rads & oil burner or with UFH. We looked into geothermal and are not convinced about the payback period but we still have to rule UFH in or out (i.e use oil CH and underfloor or conventional rads)
We may also plan space for a possible future conversion to wood pellets (I'm not going to be an early adopter with that system yet).

So, has anyone gotten UFH and regretted not going for conventional rads ?
What are the downsides ?
I'm looking for experiences of using oil or geothermal. If we do go UFH most likely we will use oil for now since I can't seem to get the justification for the big capital install for the geothermal.

We are building a conventional 2 storey block cavity wall house (250m sq, 2700 sq ft) on a 1 acre site in the West of Ireland.

~ipl

prospect

Hi IPL,

Firstly, my situation is similar to yours:
2 Story, 2800Sq Ft, Oil Burner, Rads upstairs, UFH Downstairs.

Do I regret it, YES, but more specifically, I regret not spending more money at the outset and getting an experienced specialist in to do the job.

My advice to you is;
1. DO NOT try to save money on UFH, or cut costs. Go for a proven and experienced specialist, and not just a plumber who has seen it done before.
2. Be aware that UFH is not necessarily cheaper than rads, as you have to keep the house warm 24/7 in order for it to work efficiently (therefore it would probably be cheaper if there is someone in the house all day, every day).
3. It will take time to get all the settings right.
4. Remember, If it goes wrong, it can go very very wrong.

The advantages:
1. Your house is always warm
2. No unsightly radiators
3. Even heat all over each room

Just my opinion,
And good luck with the build.

iplogger1

Prospect,

Thanks for your advice and quick reply !

So I'm assuming you engaged a run of mill plumber to install the UFH as part of the overall plumbing works for the build ?

Just a few additional questions.

What type of flooring have you installed on the ground floor ?
(solid wood, semi-solid, laminate ? tiles ?)

We were thinking of solid wood floors for the main reception rooms
and floor tiles for kitchens and downstairs bathroom. Semi solid or
engineered wood flooring in the less "showy" rooms downstairs.
I'm hearing all sorts of opinions on the suitability of solid wood floors
used in conjunction with UFH. I generally hear it might be fine so long
as the wood is seasoned and the width of the boards is below a certain
size, etc. Also I hear that secret nailing/battening isn't the best way to lay solid wood floor boards when placed over UFH in concrete screed,etc.

Do you have setback controls - eg. such that when the boiler timer is switched to "off" it actually just lowers the temp to 7 degrees (or
adjustable amount around that amount) below the temperature which
is normally required for heating the room (to allow for a better response time)

Have you had hassle with it on warmer days where it is a nuisance to cool the rooms down when there is a sudden increase in outdoor temperatures ?
I've heard that a side effect of the slow warmup with concrete is a slow dissipation of heat meaning that a sudden relatively warm day (today as an example) can be more awkward with UFH because it takes a long time to cool.

Any physiological difference with UFH ? My father in law (who never experienced UFH) reckons that heat coming from the ground up might make you feel a bit more fatigued ... He's no expert in physiology (!) but he is widely read and I trust he has some basis for having formed this opinion.
Perhaps at the 40degree max operating temp of UFH this is a moot point.
Just wanted to hear from the horses mouth (someone who has it installed) if this is a moot issue or not ...

Thanks again

~IPL

iplogger1

I might sneak one other question to you Prospect.

I saw a thread from you a while back where you said you replaced your oil boiler and got better efficiencies. What did you replace with ? condensing boiler ?
Just curious.

Also, did you ever consider geothermal when planning your build ?
We have and I'm just not convinced that the payback period is short enough and I also consider it to be a "smoke and mirrors" electrical heating system where you burn fossil fuels in the ESB station instead of in your home.
I'm taken by the idea of wood pellet boilers but I'd prefer to defer and not adopt that at the outset but instead plan the storage space in the event that we felt it was worth switching over to that renewable source at some point in the next 5yrs or so (perhaps using SSIA funds,etc).

~IPL

beolight

sorry to hijack your thread but very intersted in this too

what type of storage space do you have to set aside for wood pellet system?

iplogger1

Hi Beolight,

No problems.

I spoke to our Building Engineering Manager (who will oversee site visits) and who has drawn up the plans of the house,etc. We have a garage building off from the main building which is 6.2m x 7 metres. I'll have to check the height (don't have plans convenient just now). Actually I've no idea if this is adequate (I'm assuming the garage will have room left over for the boiler and for tools, small workshop area,etc. I could be way undersized. I need to check that.

However, when I spoke to the bldg engineer this morning he seemed to think that an outdoors silo (as used for agricultural feeds) was how these pellets are typically stored. He seemed to be suggesting that I'd be going overboard planning to use a portion of the large garage for storing the pellets (if we went down the wood pellet route in the coming years).

~ipl

tribesman

iplogger1 wrote:

We are building a conventional 2 storey block cavity wall house (250m sq, 2700 sq ft) on a 1 acre site in the West of Ireland.

~ipl

Maybe I shouldn't reply to this thread since you're specifically asking for regrets but perhaps you'd like to hear some positive stories also. We've a very similar situation to yourself.. We've built a 1.5 storey block cavity wall house (250m sq, 2700 sq ft) on a 1 acre site in the West of Ireland (Galway). We went for underfloor heating with geothermal and have absolutely no regrets.

I would agree with prospect that it is better to get a specialist to do the job. We got one company to do the geothermal & underfloor heating (and solar panels for hot water) I wouldn't agree with getting a plumber to do the UFH and another company to supply the geothermal as it is far better to have just one crowd to deal with as the system is set-up initially. As prospect says it can take a while to figure out what settings suit you and you don't want people passing the buck. If you're dealing with one company then make sure they don't finish till you're happy.

In my opinion the most important aspect of an underfloor heating system is the control. You need thermostats in each room and each one needs to be programmable so that you have the flexibility to make it as efficient as you want. You can increase the temperature in certain rooms and reduce it in others. Don't go for a system with just one thermostat on each floor.

We run the heatpump at night mostly to take advantage of night-rate electricity. We top up a little in the living room in the evening but we don't leave it on all the time as we find it retains the heat well during the day. We did add more insulation than required by the building regs. so maybe this isn't the case for everyone. Our walls, floor and roof have approx. 50% more insulation than required by regs.

We've used mostly tiles as a floor covering but we've used semi-solid oak in a couple of bedrooms with no problems. This is floated on top of a special underlay for underfloor heating.

Our ESB bill for the 2 months Jan - Feb was Eur216 and for Nov - Dec was Eur200. That's for all electricity including the heat and we don't have any other heating systems (pellets, oil, gas etc.)

iplogger1

Tribesman !

Great timing ! I called over to a relative of my wife's who lives 3 miles up the road last night and saw their system which sounds very similar to yours. They have a house with 220sq metres (with a large open plan area in the hallway) so the actual dimensions of the house on the exterior are quite large.

Anyway - I must say I was very impressed with the system. It is a ground source heat pump in tandem with a UFH system all supplied and fitted by Environmental installations in Sligo who are agents for unipipe, heat pump is a Swedish made NIBE 3kW in/13kW out pump and the system supplies domestic hot water for the whole house (no need for electric showers).
Now I'm still thinking of getting a solar heat collector for summer months but nevertheless I was very impressed with his system. He figures his annual ESB bill (exploiting night rate to a certain degree) is 1300Euro and his estimate (from anecdotal sources mostly) for oil heating of that dimension of house would be around 1700/1800Euro per annum. Does that tally with your experience ? He has exactly the same arrangement with thermostats and zoning down to each room. The water tank (which apparently has a tank enclosed within a tank as some kind of heat exchange or perhaps dual coil.. not sure) was taller and broader than your standard immersion tank upstairs.

I think the payback on these systems is a good deal longer than the agents would want you to think and my only concern is the longevity of the night rate electricity. There are a few environmentally savvy types who say that night rate electricity will more than likely be abolished as part of Ireland's commitments to Kyoto /polluter pays,etc. The system is definitely more grey than green in terms of its heavy and indirect use of fossil fuels but it is neat and from the consumers point of view useful perhaps to just have a single billable energy source (ESB).

Can you PM me - I'm interested in knowing who your supplier was, costs,etc.

thanks a mill'

~ipl

big_al

Hi logger,

initially after UFH install (two storeys - 190 m3), control was difficult. Too warm on sunny days and too cold when icy outside. This was a pain as we'd change the stat in each room and wait 2/3 hours for the temperature to become pleasant again.

Then it was suggested that we install an outdoor thermostat. This overrides all room stats (those in an on state) up or down depending on the outside temperature. As a result, the house temperature is as we'd like in all weather conditions.

Supplier details at www.unipipe.ie

Hope this helps,
big_al

prospect

Soooooo Many Questions ........
But I'll give it a go.


1 - The Plumber. I asked the building contractor about UFH. He went off and came back saying his plumber had experience and had no issues doing it. I very foolishly trusted this and went with it.
2 - We have mostly laminate floors, but in the kitchen we have chinese slate, and tiles in the utility and bathroom. I too thought solid wood was a no-go, but was recently corrected on another thread. Also, nailing is a definite no no.
3 - SetBack Controls. No I dont have them, but now I want them.... We have a stat that instructs the UFH pump to stop it the water temp drops below 35oC.
4 - Warm days. I haven't noticed any major difference on warm days. Our system only comes on a few times a day, so if the room stats say it is already 18oC, the UFH doesn't come on.
5 - Physiological Issues. I haven't noticed any fatigue. But what i did notice is that when you are sitting still it seems to be a bit colder than in a normal room. I assume this is just because you can't physically see a roaring fire, or walk over and touch a piping hot rad.
6 - Boiler. Nope, originally there was a 90K BTU boiler installed, and it was under too much pressure. It was replaced with a 180K BTU standard outdoor kerosene boiler.

Tribesmans post is very interesting. I am delighted it worked out well for you. It must be fantastic to not be directly dependant on fossil fuels...

Hope that helps.
I am banjoed now...

bren96

Hi Tribesman

How much was your solar/UFH/geothermal to buy and get installed?

Brendan

Salem

Ah lads yer starting to scare me now !! ... My self build has the roof going on at the moment with UFH under screed already ...
My builder said his plumber would put it down but would accuire the materials himself ... I remember seeing it all laid out and it looked quite impressive ... As good as any photos on installers websites ... It will be run off a gas condenser ...
Someone please tell me I have not made an expensive mistake going with UFH ...

Qwerty?

Personally, having moved into our house last december, I couldn't recommend UFH highly enough. We love it. Every room is warm, no draughts/cold areas etc, and no unsightly radiators, dictating how you have the furniture in a room.
You never need to switch heating on or off, or ever run out of Hot water. It's all automatic,
We are using Geothermal, and are very happy with the running costs (the ESb costs for the years heating will be less than €850) I don't know much about running it by any other means.

loopymum

Salem wrote:

Someone please tell me I have not made an expensive mistake going with UFH ...

No, I don't think so anyway!

In a new build about 6 weeks now. Have Ufh downstair and rads upstairs with a ground source heat pump. Love it! the house is 2300sqf. Downstairs the heat is throughout the house and not just in patches. We have the same tile everywhere downstairs, so no door saddles.
I particularily love the ufh and lack of saddles because I have a small child who is always sitting on the floor.

The plumber supplied and fitted the Ufh and heatpump. We were going to opt for solar panels as well, but he got in touch with the manufacturers of the heatpump. We were one of the first people he was going to supply with the heating system(yes I know we were taking a bit of a chance) but the build went slower than what we expected and ended up being the 6th.

Anyway the manufacturer of the Heat pump said we would just be wasting money getting the solar panels from them as well as the pump would be well able to handle heating the hot water as well with the addition of another tank. which worked out relatively inexpensive, as we also then decided to go for a tank which has a small heat pump attached which in the summer takes heat from the underfloor pipes and we will have hot water in the summer without turning on the main heat pump.

You would not believe the amount of programs and different stuff on the heat pump though.

It does take a while to get the heat pump working in the way you want but well worth it.

We dont have thermostats in each room though, was told its completely unnessecary but there is a thermostat outside by the heatpump which is mostly how our system runs.

Its mostly run on nightsaver as well and just tops up during the day if the temp in the pipes drop too much.

couldnt tell ya much about esb bills yet though, but the first was very reasonable and the heatpump had been running alot cos it wasnt set right. its a 8kw pump.

De_man

Just come from the sisters brand new investment property, UFH installed what a mess, timber floors destroyed, plumber cant find the leak
looks as if the whole thing has to come back up.:eek:

most likely the pipe got damage during the installation, even though
the plumber was supposed to have pressure tested the entire system

anyone have this experience? i just hope i don't have the same experience
in a few months time




a pint of plain is yer only man

yop

From what I hear from mates who have UFH and Oil heating it is very expensive to run and they are thinking of getting in a pellet stove or boiler.

We have UFH on 2 floors of a 2100 sq ft timber frame. We also have a Heliotherm GSHP.
We are very very happy with our setup, probably hitting in or about 15 euro per weeks for all heating and hot water but the house is alway comfortable.
I am doing a monthly reading of the meters myself to get a better idea.

I did the UFH myself for 4800 and I got climate control to install the heatpump.

prospect

Salem wrote:

Ah lads yer starting to scare me now !! ... .

Oh dear, sorry, I was just trying to be open and honest.

In my opinion, anyone who has had a poor experience with UFH should look seriously at the installation & set-up. The theory/technology is fine.

To update on our situation.

Originally we were using 1 tank of oil per month :eek:
Obviously we have used very little all summer, but I filled the tank (1000L) on the 1st of september. I reckon I won't have to re-fill until the end of this month. That is a 3x improvement on the original set-up.
Here are the things we had to do, incidentally, none of these cost us any money, as they were all set-up and settings related.

1. The boiler that was installed was not powerful enough for the house. This was replaced with a more suitable one. Obviously the builder suffered the cost of this.
2. The stats and the controls were mixed up. e.g. The living room stat was controlling the kitchen circuit.
3. The pump cut off was set to low. This meant that when the boiler went off, the pumps continuously pumped cooling & cold water around this house. This meant we were activly cooling the floors.
4. The timings were set wrong.
5. The upstairs heating was off (as we don;t use upstairs much, yet). This is a big mistake as heat moves upwards. If your rooms upstairs are fairly warm you will save money, as the heat downstairs will stay there and then there is less effort to heat the house.
6. The boiler was not comissioned and set-up correctly. Insist on getting a boiler guy who will take exact readings using the proper equipment. We originally had a 'do it by eye' guy. We then got a guy with the proper equipment and he increasec the efficiency from 87% to 92.7%, which is excellent for a kerosene boiler.

So, I suppose the bottom line is, GET SOMEONE WHO REALLY KNOWS THEIR STUFF.

P