Comments on these hand, please?

azzeretti

Two hands below, I would like to hear what people think of how they were played.

One:
Double chance tourney, hero just lost first half of chips to bad beat and reloaded and has 1250. Hero is BB with As Td. Blinds 25/50. UTG+2 (with about 4000 chips) calls as does the button, all fold and back to BB who makes it 100 to go, UTG+2 reraises to 200, button folds. BB calls. Flop is Ts Js 5s. BB checks, UTG+2 bets 600. Back to the BB, whats his move?


Two:
Button dealt Jd Kh. Blinds 100/200. UTG and UTG+1 call, UTG+2 raises to 600. Folds to button who calls. SB/BB fold. UTG pushes for the rest of his stack making it about 3500 to go. All fold to the button. Whats the move?


This would seem pretty straight forward answers here but I was surprised by some peoples reactions.

Lafortezza

1) Push
2) What is buttons stack? How many players left?
Probably fold.

Gholimoli

first hand was played very bad.
when you raise you raise for a reason.
some of these reasons are to maybe thin the filed, build a pot etc.
what are your intentions of making a raise of 100 from 50 here?
its very bad as it really accomplish nothing.
however after that go all in.

hand two:
you cant really say anything unless you know the stacks.

Gholimoli

first hand was played very bad.
when you raise you raise for a reason.
some of these reasons are to maybe thin the filed, build a pot etc.
what are your intentions of making a raise of 100 from 50 here?
its very bad as it really accomplish nothing.
however after that go all in.

hand two:
you cant really say anything unless you know the stacks.

ianmc38

1. I'm pushing here
2. Where's the dilemma? Fold.

fuzzbox

I remember the action differently in hand 2 (well I think its the same hand)

The push came from late position (as in, there was a few callers, then the eventual pusher) called, then a small raise from the blinds, that was called by all the limpers, and then finally the push from late position, that was folded around to the other guy with KJo, who (I believe) correctly called, given that the pot was 4*600 + 3500 = 6k, and he had to call 2900.

I think you should have pushed the first time around.

Correct me if this is the same hand.

Also - the first hand is a push on the flop - especially since UTG+2 was an uber donk (again I *believe* this to be the same hand).

I guess you were sitting to my right.

I also thought that you had position on UTG+2 on the first hand.

ianmc38

Was Azzeretti the guy with 88?

fuzzbox

Well if he isnt then there were two very similar hands that occurred on a totally different table.

Krusty_Clown

I missed the game last night.. Any boards winners? How was the standard?

azzeretti

Gholimoli wrote:

first hand was played very bad.
when you raise you raise for a reason.
some of these reasons are to maybe thin the filed, build a pot etc.
what are your intentions of making a raise of 100 from 50 here?
its very bad as it really accomplish nothing.
however after that go all in.

hand two:
you cant really say anything unless you know the stacks.

Agreed, shocking looking back on it, no reason at all for the STUPID raise. I blame those Fkucking TV's directly in front of me for loss of concertration

azzeretti

fuzzbox wrote:

I remember the action differently in hand 2 (well I think its the same hand)

The push came from late position (as in, there was a few callers, then the eventual pusher) called, then a small raise from the blinds, that was called by all the limpers, and then finally the push from late position, that was folded around to the other guy with KJo, who (I believe) correctly called, given that the pot was 4*600 + 3500 = 6k, and he had to call 2900.

I think you should have pushed the first time around.

Correct me if this is the same hand.

Also - the first hand is a push on the flop - especially since UTG+2 was an uber donk (again I *believe* this to be the same hand).

I guess you were sitting to my right.

I also thought that you had position on UTG+2 on the first hand.

Couple of things:
I was BB with the flush draw, as I was first to act on the flop and cheked. Maybe I need to grow a set of balls but I just felt I would be gambling big time here. I didn't know at this stage that this guy was a donkey (didn't find out till later!) and he had reraised me preflop, so the I had his hand range pretty high. I would have been getting around 2/1 for a call and obviously a little more if I'd have pushed and got called (which he would have), I would have gone out here and I felt I could get a better time later on to make a stand. The real problem was my terrible min raise pre-flop, looking back I should have raised condsiderable, if raising at all.
The hand with the 8's was a strange, I had enought chips to limp here(I was UTG), i.e I was't short enought relative to the blinds to push. When I saw the raise I just knew this guy was stealing and at this stage I decied to take the gamble I shunned away from in the first hand. The caller was getting about 2/1 for the call but he only had around 4500 chips total meaning if his JKo didn't stand up he would be a bad way.
Anyway, I suppose I was looking for a call with the 8's as I was tilting big time from getting fleeched bigtime from one particular player twice! Was getting rags all night.

On a side note, if anyone from the SE is looking at this site, turn the bloody TV's off close to the poker tables, please?:)

azzeretti

ianmc38 wrote:

Was Azzeretti the guy with 88?

Yes.

Hectorjelly

the preflop min raise and the call with KJo are both terrible, what happens after those mistakes is less important than cutting down on fundamental errors IMO

azzeretti

Hectorjelly wrote:

the preflop min raise and the call with KJo are both terrible, what happens after those mistakes is less important than cutting down on fundamental errors IMO

Agreed. I wasn't the player with KJo though. I was the UTG player in this hand and pushed with 88. The KJo hit on the flop and I was out.

Hectorjelly

azzeretti wrote:

Agreed. I wasn't the player with KJo though. I was the UTG player in this hand and pushed with 88. The KJo hit on the flop and I was out.

I think the limp utg is pretty bad. The all in is fun though

azzeretti

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think the limp utg is pretty bad. The all in is fun though

Really, would have pushed from UTG with 88, with the blinds this low realtive to my stack? Or just threw in a large raise? I'd be interested in your thoughts on this?

ianmc38

Hi Azzeretti, you were the button on my BB. Fuzzbox was the SB. I thought the AT was an insta-call. 88 was a good move, i thought you were unlucky to get a caller.

azzeretti

ianmc38 wrote:

Hi Azzeretti, you were the button on my BB. Fuzzbox was the SB. I thought the AT was an insta-call. 88 was a good move, i thought you were unlucky to get a caller.

Thanks Ian, the AT was, looking back, a badly played hand. I live and learn!

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Hi Azzeretti, you were the button on my BB. Fuzzbox was the SB. I thought the AT was an insta-push. 88 was a good move, i thought you were unlucky to get a caller.

Fixed that for you ian

charlesanto

azzeretti wrote:

Couple of things:
On a side note, if anyone from the SE is looking at this site, turn the bloody TV's off close to the poker tables, please?:)

Please do not turn off the TV's:mad:

Iago

azzeretti wrote:

Two hands below, I would like to hear what people think of how they were played.

One:
Double chance tourney, hero just lost first half of chips to bad beat and reloaded and has 1250. Hero is BB with As Td. Blinds 25/50. UTG+2 (with about 4000 chips) calls as does the button, all fold and back to BB who makes it 100 to go, UTG+2 reraises to 200, button folds. BB calls. Flop is Ts Js 5s. BB checks, UTG+2 bets 600. Back to the BB, whats his move?

Raise more if you're going to raise, should be to at least 300. Personally I probably just check preflop. Even if an A comes down on the flop you've no idea if you're ahead or not. A min raise from UTG+2 after a limp is a sure sign of trouble, he's hoping that you raise him again and then he'll put you all-in. AA/KK/QQ or AK are the only holdings I put him on after this.

Post flop you're in a whole heap of trouble, but if you believe that a T/A or spade wins it for you then you've about a 56% chance of winning the pot. You've got 20*BB left but you're going to be in trouble very quickly. If you feel you can outplay the table and get some chips in a short period of time fold, if you want to gamble and maybe play some blackjack before you go home, push. I probably push here though, and then kick myself all the way home for getting into that position in the first place!

Two:
Button dealt Jd Kh. Blinds 100/200. UTG and UTG+1 call, UTG+2 raises to 600. Folds to button who calls. SB/BB fold. UTG pushes for the rest of his stack making it about 3500 to go. All fold to the button. Whats the move?


This would seem pretty straight forward answers here but I was surprised by some peoples reactions.

fold, unless your stack is 15K plus. can't tell for sure unless I have more information on stack sizes, read on player etc.

but if I have less than 15K and I don't know that this guy will do this with any two on a steal then fold. He has no need to get involved in a pot with his stack with a raise and call in front of him. again a limp UTG is normally a strong hand.

azzeretti

Iago wrote:

Raise more if you're going to raise, should be to at least 300. Personally I probably just check preflop. Even if an A comes down on the flop you've no idea if you're ahead or not. A min raise from UTG+2 after a limp is a sure sign of trouble, he's hoping that you raise him again and then he'll put you all-in. AA/KK/QQ or AK are the only holdings I put him on after this.

Post flop you're in a whole heap of trouble, but if you believe that a T/A or spade wins it for you then you've about a 45% chance of winning the pot. You've got 20*BB left but you're going to be in trouble very quickly. If you feel you can outplay the table and get some chips in a short period of time fold, if you want to gamble and maybe play some blackjack before you go home, push. I probably push here though, and then kick myself all the way home for getting into that position in the first place!


fold, unless your stack is 15K plus. can't tell for sure unless I have more information on stack sizes, read on player etc.

but if I have less than 15K and I don't know that this guy will do this with any two on a steal then fold. He has no need to get involved in a pot with his stack with a raise and call in front of him. again a limp UTG is normally a strong hand.

I am certain that I played the first hand terribly at the start, but my question really, was how people would play if they were suddenly put into that position i.e holding AT with a big draw and pushing for the gamble. As soon as I min raised in this hand I knew I was being an idiot, but the fact was I was suddenly in the hand and had to sort it out. When I layed down the hand after the bet after the flop a lot of players said I was mad, one said if he had the 2s he would have called. I was just wonering what others thought - forgetting how I actually got myself in that position in the first place - about me laying it down. The pots odds were against me, and if I gambled and didn't hit I was out. I was trying to look at it from a tournament point of view, rather than just this hand. I'm still not entirely sure I did the right thing!

The second hand annoyed me a little, I thought at the time the guy with KJ had no right in calling me (I was the one with 88), but there is argument for both calling (slim) and folding. Overall, I am happier with the way I played this hand.

kincsem

Fold. He was looking for someone to raise into his monster.

Fold. No reason to play.

Hectorjelly

azzeretti wrote:

Really, would have pushed from UTG with 88, with the blinds this low realtive to my stack? Or just threw in a large raise? I'd be interested in your thoughts on this?

No I meant the limp reraise all in was fun, but the stacks were to shallow for it to work properly. I would raise or fold with 88 there and those stacks.

azzeretti

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would raise or fold with 88 there and those stacks.

Hector, I am interested to know what your thought pattern would be for raising or folding i.e how do think the hand might pan out if you did one or the other.

Heres the options I thought at the time
1) Limp, (I am UTG and out of position) take a cheap flop and see what happens
2) Fold.
3) Raise - but by how much? If I pushed here, it would look like a complete steal, going all in UTG for 18.5XBB (but would be fine if i picked up the blinds!). If I raise here, to say 800, I would have to push to a reraise or fold. That fold (which I would be unlikely to actually do) would leave me close to 10XBB on the next hand. If there is no reraise, I am in dodgy position on the flop and then I'm either a) check raising allin or b)betting out and folding to a reraise or pushing. I know the inital raise may take out a few players and leave the hand shorter but it really leaves me no options on the flop.
All this before I actualy start thinking about the hand strenght versus "any 2 cards"