AKo in the BB - Four Aces live hand

G-Knome

When i'm raising I always try to be in position, which is quite understandable. And so i've always had difficulty playing AK in the blinds as if i raise and get a caller but miss the flop I usually end up giving the pot up. I tried it a little differently tonight it the Four Aces, here's the hand...

7 table MTT, 30 mins in, I have 9.5k after starting with 4.5k, blinds 50/100. Table is tight passive with alot of students playing.

UTG+2 limps, button limps, small blind completes. I look down at AKo and make it 600, a bigger raise than I'd usually go for but just trying to take it down now as I don't fancy playing oop post-flop. UTG+2 calls, button calls and SB folds. Pot is now 1900.

Flop: 7 5 2 rainbow. Ok so i've missed it but i really want to take this pot down and will give a go as i've been the pre-flop aggressor. I check the flop and hope that someone bets so I can raise. As my hand is so weak now, only Ace high, I think I need to represent as much strength as possible, the check-raise gives me this opportunity. UTG+2 checks and button bets 500, a very weak bet. Button is a LAG novice. Delighted to have the button betting out, now I check-raise him and make it 2000. This bet is to buy me information, take the pot down now or at least have the villain think twice about betting the turn so I could get a free river card. UTG+2 folds and the button calls. Can't really put him on a hand yet although he has turned over ace-rag twice already so he could have A7 or A5, set doesn't seem likely from his body language when he called the re-raise. Pot is now 5900.

Turn is a 9. As villain called my raise i check the turn to find out where i'm at. If he bets out I know i'll have to give it up. Also i'm not very worried about having to pay to see the river as he could be expecting another check-raise if he bets. Villain checks too.

River is a 3. No flush possible, but a few straights are out there however from the way the hand has been played it looks like the winning hand will be the higher pair. Now is the time to bet and take down the pot. Villain is sitting on around 6000. Instead of going all-in I put a bet of 4000 into the 5900 pot, a bet which I feels "wants a caller". I often find these the hardest bets to call as alarm bells are often going off in your head telling you you're beat. Villain deliberates and folds his hand after about 2 minutes and I take it down, I don't show the bluff.

So..... how did I play this hand? Was I just lucky to win it or should I avoid making moves altogether when first to speak?

BTW I ended up finishing 8th. I was all-in with AK vs JJ & KK. Flop is AKJ! Turn and river are blanks and I'm out.

a-k-47

yes you found a weakness in his hand, he probably had mid pair but just afraid to call it...wp, ul on the F.T.....

RoundTower

G-Knome wrote:

Button is a LAG novice.

I think you should find someone else to bluff. Obviously your play worked this time but at least half of the time you'll find yourself looking round for sympathy and asking "how could he call with that?"

Gholimoli

to be honest i dont think you played tha hand well .
i understand what your saying about not wanting to raise when OOP but there are couple of advantages that a raise here can give you:
1.thin the field and by doing that your automaticaly increasing your chances of winning.

2.narrowing down the range of hands that your playing against.
flop play:
the check is the correct play seen as you missed .there are too many players to try and bluff and your out of position.
the check raise is what i dont like .
what do you put button on?
you said your self he likes playing A rags.in that case he may well have hit his kicker in which case he is ahead of you .but thats not even the worse part of a big check raise like that.
the problem is UTG+2 is still alive .what do you put him on?
i think his range is anything from 22-TT ,AJ,AT, not so much AK or AQ as he owuld more than likely open raise with them.
if he has a PP he may have hit a set here and checking with the intention of check riase in which case your big raise will just make his day.
if he has something like TT his not gonna fold and could also come over the top.
i think the worse part of the play however was checking the turn.
you have check raise big on the flop.
checking the turn is screaming that you dont have a hand.
think about it ,check raise means i have a big hand,button has called your check raise.why would you wanna check the turn and not make more money on the turn if you atually did have a strong hand?
if it was nay decent player they would move on you here knowing full well you cant call.
also the big bet on the river is another giveaway that you have missed your hand after checking the turn.

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

the check is the correct play seen as you missed .there are too many players to try and bluff and your out of position.

he only got 2 callers and being out of position makes your flop bet look stronger. I think if you are planning on check folding a missed flop you are far better off not raising Ax out of the blinds.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

he only got 2 callers and being out of position makes your flop bet look stronger. I think if you are planning on check folding a missed flop you are far better off not raising Ax out of the blinds.

i still think two caller is one too many to try to bluff even though i would do it my self sometimes.howeve if i bet out here would be with the intention of folding to any raise.but if you dont bet you can check and see what the turn brings or even call a small bet like 500 to see the turn.

G-Knome

Thanks for the advice. However, i was quite happy with the way i played it. I don't think bluffing against two opponents is actually a problem, haven't you ever bluffed the entire table when you felt there was no strength out there? I've played with both utg+2 and the button on a few occasions and neither ever posed a serious threat, thats why I knew i could knock them off the pot. Utg+2 is easily the kind of player to call my preflop raise with as little as Q9s and his check on the flop was nothing but weakness, he doesn't slowplay when he has a hand.
I don't see what was wrong with checking the turn. If my check-raise was called then surely this will be called too, thats not how i'm going to win the hand, i'm not looking for a showdown. I have AK but it could easily be 72o as i'm not playing my cards, i'm playing his...
Also 4k into a 5.9k pot is not a big bet by any standards. and remember this is the infamous Four Aces, say it with me now.... ALL IN!

ollyk1

I'm happy with the play until the turn. One comment on the CR you are making the pot a lot bigger and you have to be sure these guys are capable of folding on the turn or river with a big pot out there.

I push on the turn because he might bet and commit himself to the hand (almost without thinking) if I check. The fact that hes a LAG novice can be a problem but if you push you won't end up in a situation where he feels committed with 88 or 99.

I agree you gotta mix up the play with AK and AQ in the blinds or else you'll never get action when you wake up with a big PP in the blinds unless you're beat.

Marq

Considering that the players you describe are unlikely to realise that a flop checkraise indicates strength, I think you would have been better off cont. betting the flop. Your aggression won you the hand, but that doesn't mean that you didn't get lucky.

I also think that you are mistaken in thinking that checkraising the flop buys you a free turn card. Many good players will decide that your check-raise on the flop was an attempt to buy the pot early, and when you check again on the turn they will (rightly) bet if they have even a medium strength hand.
Raising to get a free turn card works extremely well in position, but generally just causes you problems from the blinds.

It's rare that I would raise pre-flop. check-raise the flop and not bet the turn, when playing out of the blinds, whether I was bluffing or had a strong hand.

G-Knome

Marq wrote:

Considering that the players you describe are unlikely to realise that a flop checkraise indicates strength, I think you would have been better off cont. betting the flop. Your aggression won you the hand, but that doesn't mean that you didn't get lucky.

I also think that you are mistaken in thinking that checkraising the flop buys you a free turn card. Many good players will decide that your check-raise on the flop was an attempt to buy the pot early, and when you check again on the turn they will (rightly) bet if they have even a medium strength hand.
Raising to get a free turn card works extremely well in position, but generally just causes you problems from the blinds.

It's rare that I would raise pre-flop. check-raise the flop and not bet the turn, when playing out of the blinds, whether I was bluffing or had a strong hand.

Actually i think the check-raise worked fine against this opponent, he genuinely sat up in his chair when I did it!

BTW this isn't exactly a move i do everytime, just this once! I like to try new things in this game as it's unlimited rebuys.

Your analysis of the play is fine but there is no way in hell the people I was playing against ever thought I was weak here nor did they go into such deep thought about what I had.

I wouldn't have tried this against a better opponent or if I was then I would have been all-in on the turn. Nor would I have tried this online, certainly not.

I'm fairly sure of my ability to read players live and this coupled with a decent table presence were actually the key factors in me winning the hand. Thats poker baby... :cool:

Gholimoli

making big check raise on the flop and then checking the turn screams a bluff .
think about it.you make a check raise making the pot bigger and then not value bet the turn?why not?the pot is big and it needs to be protected/value bet at.now if your playing donkeys that call your check raise and not pick up on your check on the turn then thats another story.the play is bad unless you knwo your facing rubish players which you seem to know you were .

a-k-47

on the turn card the donkeys are still thinking about that flop check raise and think they are lucky to get a free turn. However you shouldnt check the turn ever, 1,6k bet here would be fine. But as u say u know how they play so u need not worry to much about betting here, but against good players, continue your bet or u will find yourself having to call a 3,4k bet to try spike an ace or a king.

G-Knome

Gholimoli wrote:

making big check raise on the flop and then checking the turn screams a bluff .
think about it.you make a check raise making the pot bigger and then not value bet the turn?why not?the pot is big and it needs to be protected/value bet at.now if your playing donkeys that call your check raise and not pick up on your check on the turn then thats another story.the play is bad unless you knwo your facing rubish players which you seem to know you were .

I wouldn't have played it this way against a better player. However I did do something similar two weeks ago to great effect with KK on a king high flop to set a trap by making an all too obvious steal attempt but thats another story all together.

Anyway to reiterate, yes they were indeed rubbish players, not serious poker players at all, haven't I already stated this a few times? My betting patterns weren't giving them any information because they simply weren't clued in enough to the game to understand.

For instance, 15 minutes earlier at 25/50 its folded around to me on the button and I make it 200 with AdTd, a half decent hand to steal in this situation. Both SB and BB call. The BB is "utg+2" from my Ak hand analysis. Flop comes with 3 diamonds, yummy, giving me the nuts. The blinds check, I was going to check too but though it might by a bit suspiciouis after the raise so I make a really weak bet of 200 into the 600 pot. SB folds and BB calls. I don't mind SB folding, he'll only pay me off if he has a diamond anyway. Turn is club. BB checks, I reach for my chips to bet but look at my cards again and check instead. River is another diamond, I still have the nuts and just hope the BB likes his flush which I presume he has been chasing. He does, he makes it 1000. Now i'm thinking, ok he's got a flush but not ace high, how much can I get him to pay me, he could work out that i've got the Ad after raising on the button (any ace likely here) and the raise on the river must mean the top diamond. I make it 3k. Then he comes over the top of me for another 2k or so and I call instantly. He had the 9d. Need I say more? :eek:

Marq

Yes. You're right. You are a total legend.

Gholimoli

Marq wrote:

Yes. You're right. You are a total legend.

one to watch out for.

G-Knome

Marq, if i may go into "mod" mode - keep your sarcastic comments to yourself and only reply if you have something valuable to add.

And Gholi, why did you have to sink to his level? I had high hopes for you son.

Good day..

Gholimoli

G-Knome wrote:

Marq, if i may go into "mod" mode - keep your sarcastic comments to yourself and only reply if you have something valuable to add.

And Gholi, why did you have to sink to his level? I had high hopes for you son.

Good day..

are you joking me.
have you read your posts .
im gonna bring to your attention a few comments from your posts to see just how funny you sound .
this from firts post:
"So..... how did I play this hand? Was I just lucky to win it or should I avoid making moves altogether when first to speak?"
and then later:
"Thanks for the advice. However, i was quite happy with the way i played it"
if your happy then WTF are you asking for advice and asking how you played it.
then you say villain's dont know anything about poker and yet you make a check raise to represent a strong hand to a villain who wouldn’t know what that is.
then you say "im checking the turn to find out where i am" .WTF your behind thats where you are.and by checking the turn your screaming that your behind.
then you come out with some none sense about "villain is scared of me check raising again" WTF.where have you learned your poker. the pot is so big at this stage that no one in their right mind is going to offer any villain a free card unless they have a locked hand.and if you have a locked hand why not get more money out of it seen as the pot is big enough for villain to call here.

they you say your making a nearly 4K bet in to 5.8K pot and you calling it "oh i want a caller bet " WTF? how is making a pot sized bet saying that you want a caller?fair enough if you made it 1.5K -2.5K but your making a pot sized bet here and thats what you call it.
you have no clue what your talking about and TBH i think you saw AK and you got marrie to it and you were drawing to your over cards all along and just got lucky.
next time don’t ask opinions and then pretend your some "know it all" with clueless justifications.
you will just make your self look silly.

mewso

Keep the discussion civil please.

Marq

G-Knome,
I wasn't being sarcastic. You are a legend.
I get the impression that Gholimoli was being sarcastic, but just because he quoted me, that does not mean that I too was being sarcastic. I disliked Gholimoli quoting me. I feel like I have been quoted out of context, and incurred your ire as a result. I'd like to distance myself from Gholimoli's comments as I wouldn't want you to think that because he quoted me, I agree with him.

I am quite impressed by your brazen ignorance of any advice given to you about this hand. I believe that you posted it hoping for some congratulatory pats on the back, or perhaps because you have seen other, respected posters post interesting hands and wish to emulate them. The general concensus seems to be that while it was somewhat interesting, the play of this hand is not worthy of congratulatory pats on the back. Undeterred, you have shrugged off any and all advice, making it seem to those of us who thought you were looking for constructive criticism that there was absolutely no need for any discussion of this hand whatsoever - and as such perhaps it would have been better had you posted it elsewhere, like the bad beat/brag sticky, or to a distant relative.

It matters not to me whether you agree with the advice that I, or any other poster on this forum, gives to you about this hand. I hope that I have "added somthing valuable" to this thread, in post no.9.

Let the mods be mods. They are mods for a reason - because they are level-headed and repsonsible, and because allowing individual posters to police the fora themselves is a recipe for disaster.

G-Knome

OMG save the rant for someone else and get off your high horse while your at it. Truth be told I just quickly glanced over it but i'm not even going to give you the satisfaction of reading it because I don't value your opinion whatsoever.

Don't even thinking i'm sinking to your level by arguing back with you.

yawn....


mods please close/burn/nuke this thread for everyones sake.

Hitman Actual

G-Knome wrote:

OMG save the rant for someone else and get off your high horse while your at it.

High horse? lol! From the same stable, perhaps:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50905564&postcount=1