5/10 QQ hand

fuzzbox

5/10 6-max Party
Hero is button with QhQs (1000)
Villain is UTG+1 (1000). Villain is a good reg, can be tricky and can be aggro. He probably knows that I am well capable of reraising light here. I should have a pretty tight image though.

Preflop
villain opens for 35, get called by another reg in the CO, I make it 140 on the button, only villain calls

Flop (325)
Ac 7c 4d
Bleh - the obligatory Ace. Check and I check (????)

Turn (325)
Qc
Well thats a godsend aint it. I'm not afraid of clubs cos the Ace is on the board. So now I figure I have the best hand.
Villain leads for 150 ... I push for 850.

Im not sure I like the push, but I'm equally not sure if I like any other line.

What y'all think?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

5/10 6-max Party
Hero is button with QhQs (1000)
Villain is UTG+1 (1000). Villain is a good reg, can be tricky and can be aggro. He probably knows that I am well capable of reraising light here. I should have a pretty tight image though.

Preflop
villain opens for 35, get called by another reg in the CO, I make it 140 on the button, only villain calls

Flop (325)
Ac 7c 4d
Bleh - the obligatory Ace. Check and I check (????)

Turn (325)
Qc
Well thats a godsend aint it. I'm not afraid of clubs cos the Ace is on the board. So now I figure I have the best hand.
Villain leads for 150 ... I push for 850.

Im not sure I like the push, but I'm equally not sure if I like any other line.

What y'all think?

Is the point of the all-in here to make him call?
You most deffo have the best hand and seen as your not afraid of the flush then there is not many river cards that can beat you?
Why not make a smaller reriase to milk him more ?
To be honest I don’t think he has an A here unless he has AA.
Why not reraise say about 200-300 here.if he has some sort of a draw he may call a small reraise but certainly will not call an all-in for 850.

fuzzbox

Im not afraid of the MADE flush, but its reasonable to expect him to have a flush draw.
He could also appear here with AK I think.

ianmc38

Without any detailed notes on the villain I hate the way you played it. If he's a good player then he's folding TP TK and 2 pair. he'll only call you here with a set or a flush, both of which I think we can rule out.

Edit: Top pair with the nut flush draw still has to lay this down with that raise

fuzzbox

He could have 77 here, and he could have AxKc.

fuzzbox

Perhaps some extra context on villain is required.

On another table - I opened for 35 on the button with Ac6c, villain called in the SB.

Flop Ad 9s 2c
check,check

Turn 7c
check, I bet 50, villain makes it 150, I call

River blank
check,check

He had 55.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

He could have 77 here, and he could have AxKc.

I just factored AxKc in as you were replying. Still a laydown with your raise. Why not give him 3-1 to call?

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I just factored AxKc in as you were replying. Still a laydown with your raise. Why not give him 3-1 to call?

Because I am almost certainly committed for my stack regardless, so I wouldnt be *really* giving him 3:1.

Pot now is 325 + 150 = 425. If I make it 450 to go, he would have to call 300 to win 875. But I would only have 400 left, and would find it hard to laydown a set for 400 into a huge pot on the river, even if a club came.

Im also positive that this action would be very transparent to this opponent. Pushing might make him call with AxKc maybe believing that he is freerolling.

ianmc38

I think it's pretty transparent that you have a set no matter what way you play this.

I can't see a good villain calling off all his stack with TP TK and the nut flush draw

Gholimoli

I don’t think he would call your reriase with 77 OOP.
Also if he had 77 why check the flop when there is flush draw there. if he had 77 it would be well hidden which makes it all the more likely that he would bet out with it.
I don’t think he has AxKc either. If he had an A why check the flop? Why not bet out?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

I don’t think he would call your reriase with 77 OOP.
Also if he had 77 why check the flop when there is flush draw there. if he had 77 it would be well hidden which makes it all the more likely that he would bet out with it.
I don’t think he has AxKc either. If he had an A why check the flop? Why not bet out?

I think he would call my reraise with 77.

He checks this flop, because he expects me to bet this flop VERY often. Why bet into me? I might fold KK or QQ if he bets, but if he checks, then I might bet those hands, and he can check/raise me ... or check/call or whatever he wants really.

There is no need for him to bet here regardless of what he holds.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

I think he would call my reraise with 77.

He checks this flop, because he expects me to bet this flop VERY often. Why bet into me? I might fold KK or QQ if he bets, but if he checks, then I might bet those hands, and he can check/raise me ... or check/call or whatever he wants really.

There is no need for him to bet here regardless of what he holds.

calling a reraise after a raise and a call with 77 OOP when his not even closing the action is pushing it a little i think.
there is a flush draw on board so i think he would make some sort of a bet on the flop if he had 77.
you may fold KK,QQ here but you will more than likely raise with a good A as well and then he can come over the top.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

calling a reraise after a raise and a call with 77 OOP when his not even closing the action is pushing it a little i think.
there is a flush draw on board so i think he would make some sort of a bet on the flop if he had 77.
you may fold KK,QQ here but you will more than likely raise with a good A as well and then he can come over the top.

Gholi. Not meaning to be a git here, but everything you have said here is not true. Certainly not in these games.

From his perspective, *I* am not likely to have a flush draw on the flop either, so why bet and risk losing a continuation bet from KK/QQ/JJ/TT ?

The same is true for him holding AK or 77. He would figure to have the best hand with both of these holdings, and would figure that I would bet the flop very very often. If he bets, then I would likely fold a worse hand, and he would cost himself money.

Also remember that the pot is now very big in relation to the remaining stacks - so if he bets, and I come over the top - its all-in. Since his bet, would be asking me if I want to play for my stack, then my answer would often be "no" unless I held AK/AA/77/44

But I am not likely to lay any of these hands down, no matter what he does, so he must try to get more money from KK-TT. (assuming that he is, in fact, ahead)

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Gholi. Not meaning to be a git here, but everything you have said here is not true. Certainly not in these games.

From his perspective, *I* am not likely to have a flush draw on the flop either, so why bet and risk losing a continuation bet from KK/QQ/JJ/TT ?

The same is true for him holding AK or 77. He would figure to have the best hand with both of these holdings, and would figure that I would bet the flop very very often. If he bets, then I would likely fold a worse hand, and he would cost himself money.

Also remember that the pot is now very big in relation to the remaining stacks - so if he bets, and I come over the top - its all-in. Since his bet, would be asking me if I want to play for my stack, then my answer would often be "no" unless I held AK/AA/77/44

But I am not likely to lay any of these hands down, no matter what he does, so he must try to get more money from KK-TT. (assuming that he is, in fact, ahead)

ok i get what your saying .but two things i dont understand:

1.why do you think that him calling your reraise OOP with a player yet to act is normal weith 77?

2.why cant you have a flush draw?is it because the Ac is there?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

ok i get what your saying .but two things i dont understand:

1.why do you think that him calling your reraise OOP with a player yet to act is normal weith 77?

2.why cant you have a flush draw?is it because the Ac is there?

Well he had to pay 105 to win - blinds (15) + bet (35) + call (35) + raise (140) = 225. So he gets slightly more than 2:1, but he would figure to regularly get my stack if he hits a set, as I likely have AA-TT. So if he can get the 800 or so in my stack then he would have 10:1. Since he is 8:1 to hit a set on the flop he can play.

Its close though, but I must consider it. His most likely calling hands are pairs (or AK).

Since the Ac is on the flop - yes it is very unlikely that either of us have a flush draw ... unless I am speeding about. (he is very unlikely to call a reraise with 6c7c for example). I might reraise with such a hand, but I dont do so very often.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Well he had to pay 105 to win - blinds (15) + bet (35) + call (35) + raise (140) = 225. So he gets slightly more than 2:1, but he would figure to regularly get my stack if he hits a set, as I likely have AA-TT. So if he can get the 800 or so in my stack then he would have 10:1. Since he is 8:1 to hit a set on the flop he can play.

Its close though, but I must consider it. His most likely calling hands are pairs (or AK).

Since the Ac is on the flop - yes it is very unlikely that either of us have a flush draw ... unless I am speeding about. (he is very unlikely to call a reraise with 6c7c for example). I might reraise with such a hand, but I dont do so very often.

i get what your saying about the implied odds making it just ok for him to call but he is not capping the action so any calculation would be based on him hoping that the other villain either folds or flat calls.
its true that the caller may not have much of a hand seen as he didnt reraise the raise but would a flat calling a big raise from the CO with KK,AA be that bad of play here.
am i wrong thinking this way?

2.also if the implied odds of him getting your stack makes it ok to call with 77 ,would it not make it ok to call with Tc9c or any SC here?

Bytheway im trying to get my thinking straight so i do appriacte your detailed responces.

ianmc38

I think KK/AA he'll be coming over the top of your raise preflop as he's oop. 7s is possible. I'd call a raise with 7s oop *sometimes* in cash games, though in this case I probably wouldn't.

AK will nearly always call a LP raiser. If he holds AK, he's probably checking the flop with the intent of pushing when you make your continuation bet. Trun he probably thinks he's good still, but with your raise he must laydown AK/AJ in this spot.

AQ is a tougher laydown but with your preflop raise and your push on the turn (I assume this guy has you noted as a good player) he must give you credit for a set or a flush.

If you just call here, will we get another bet from this guy on a non-club river do you think? If so we can take his stack some of the time, take another big leading bet some of the time and fold to a club on the river 1 in 4 times.

So once we'll lose $625
But 3 times, we'll win $900+

Making it a +EV move to just call.

Obviously this is only holds true if we're sure he'll bet a non club river.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

2.also if the implied odds of him getting your stack makes it ok to call with 77 ,would it not make it ok to call with Tc9c or any SC here?

Suited connectors can be alot more expensive then pocket pairs.

Small PPs you miss and check-fold usually.

SCs you flop an open ender or a flush draw and you're then sucked into losing alot more.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Suited connectors can be alot more expensive then pocket pairs.

Small PPs you miss and check-fold usually.

SCs you flop an open ender or a flush draw and you're then sucked into losing alot more.

Well if you do flop an open ender /flush draw, are surely you cant be loosing money if you chase while getting the correct odds for chasing and dump while your not ?
Is this wrong?

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

Well if you do flop an open ender /flush draw, are surely you cant be loosing money if you chase while getting the correct odds for chasing and dump while your not ?
Is this wrong?

In a reraised pot you will almost never be given the odds (implied or otherwise) to call unless the stacks are really deep, as the pfr will bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop and then move in on the turn. In order to make it profitable you need to be sure that you can win the pot a large percentage of the time as a semi bluff, and that means that it should be you putting in the last raise preflop.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

i get what your saying about the implied odds making it just ok for him to call but he is not capping the action so any calculation would be based on him hoping that the other villain either folds or flat calls.
its true that the caller may not have much of a hand seen as he didnt reraise the raise but would a flat calling a big raise from the CO with KK,AA be that bad of play here.
am i wrong thinking this way?

2.also if the implied odds of him getting your stack makes it ok to call with 77 ,would it not make it ok to call with Tc9c or any SC here?

Bytheway im trying to get my thinking straight so i do appriacte your detailed responces.

Suited connectors and pairs are VERY different in terms of implied odds.

If he flops a set then he can be pretty sure that he has the best hand. This will happen 1 time in 8 tries. He can be reasonably certain to get the rest of my stack if he does flop a set (But this is not always the case, which is why you normally need 20:1 implied odds, rather than 10:1 as is the case here).

However - he doesnt flop the BEST hand nearly as often with a suited connector (like 7c8c). He might flop a draw, or a crappy pair, but he has paid far too high a price to try to flop the BEST hand (2-pair or better). If he does this, then in the long run, he will blow off huge swathes of money trying to outflop dudes with big pairs.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I think KK/AA he'll be coming over the top of your raise preflop as he's oop. 7s is possible. I'd call a raise with 7s oop *sometimes* in cash games, though in this case I probably wouldn't.

AK will nearly always call a LP raiser. If he holds AK, he's probably checking the flop with the intent of pushing when you make your continuation bet. Trun he probably thinks he's good still, but with your raise he must laydown AK/AJ in this spot.

AQ is a tougher laydown but with your preflop raise and your push on the turn (I assume this guy has you noted as a good player) he must give you credit for a set or a flush.

If you just call here, will we get another bet from this guy on a non-club river do you think? If so we can take his stack some of the time, take another big leading bet some of the time and fold to a club on the river 1 in 4 times.

So once we'll lose $625
But 3 times, we'll win $900+

Making it a +EV move to just call.

Obviously this is only holds true if we're sure he'll bet a non club river.

KK will just call here everytime. And AA too. In fact, its rare that anybody 3-bets in these games. AK should fold to a reraise, but ppl get married to it too much. It has horrible reverse implied odds - as illulstrated precisely by this hand !!
He almost certainly does not have AQ.

Calling is certainly an option, but I might go on tilt if the river was a club and he bet again !!!! That would cost me more than the pot .

I doubt he would bet again, but he might check and call a push. Hmmm

careca

fuzzbox wrote:

If he flops a set then he can be pretty sure that he has the best hand. This will happen 1 time in 8 tries. He can be reasonably certain to get the rest of my stack if he does flop a set (But this is not always the case, which is why you normally need 20:1 implied odds, rather than 10:1 as is the case here).

I always have problems with implied odds. Too many players use them to try to justify a terrible call either preflop or post flop. Is this your normal guide fuzz (20:1) as i was going to say calling a raise to hit an 8/1 shot where the implied odds are only 10/1 isn't much of an advantage. Sorry for going bit off topic but this is the first time I've heard someone give an exact calculation for implied odds.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

In a reraised pot you will almost never be given the odds (implied or otherwise) to call unless the stacks are really deep, as the pfr will bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop and then move in on the turn. In order to make it profitable you need to be sure that you can win the pot a large percentage of the time as a semi bluff, and that means that it should be you putting in the last raise preflop.

ok im getting this now but just one question on this:
seen as your saying he would almost never get the correct odds needed for chasing a draw in a raised pot as the raiser will make a 2/3 bet here which makes alot of sense ,can we assume that this hand was played badley by hero because that 2/3 bet was not made on the flop so as not to give the correct odds to he draw or the bet wasnt made becuase we are certain that villain does not have a draw?

i mean how certain can we given the pre-flop action that villain does not have SC for the check on the flop to be the correct play?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Suited connectors and pairs are VERY different in terms of implied odds.

If he flops a set then he can be pretty sure that he has the best hand. This will happen 1 time in 8 tries. He can be reasonably certain to get the rest of my stack if he does flop a set (But this is not always the case, which is why you normally need 20:1 implied odds, rather than 10:1 as is the case here).

However - he doesnt flop the BEST hand nearly as often with a suited connector (like 7c8c). He might flop a draw, or a crappy pair, but he has paid far too high a price to try to flop the BEST hand (2-pair or better). If he does this, then in the long run, he will blow off huge swathes of money trying to outflop dudes with big pairs.

is this a rough guide that can be used for implied odds purposes.
10:1 for hitting a set on the flop and 20:1 for playing SC.
also would having position or being out of position have any impact on these odds?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

ok im getting this now but just one question on this:
seen as your saying he would almost never get the correct odds needed for chasing a draw in a raised pot as the raiser will make a 2/3 bet here which makes alot of sense ,can we assume that this hand was played badley by hero because that 2/3 bet was not made on the flop so as not to give the correct odds to he draw or the bet wasnt made becuase we are certain that villain does not have a draw?

i mean how certain can we given the pre-flop action that villain does not have SC for the check on the flop to be the correct play?

Its got nothing to do with what happens on the flop.

He is being faced with having to call 105 extra in a pot. In order to make THIS call profitable, he needs to (yes you guessed it), make a profit on it. Since he would not have the best hand with a suited-connector preflop he would need to outFLOP somebody.

This does not happen often enough to make the call profitable. You do not flop the best hand often enough with something like 6c7c to make calling correct. When you do outflop somebody, you might get their stack, but you will have lost money in the long run.

With a pocket pair - you improve to a set 1 time in 8
With a suited connector - you improve to twopair 1 time in 30 (I think)
You also flop flushes, straights and open trips some times, but I dont know how often.

In order to make up for all the times you lose 105 (when you hit a flop worse than two-pair and have to check/fold), you need to win a whole lot more money than 800.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

is this a rough guide that can be used for implied odds purposes.
10:1 for hitting a set on the flop and 20:1 for playing SC.
also would having position or being out of position have any impact on these odds?

As a kind of rule of thumb - if you have a pocket pair, and you are faced with a raise - you should call if - the raise represents 5% or less of either your or villains stack (whichever is smallest).
If the raise is over 10% then you should fold.
And if its somewhere in between, then you need to use your judement.

Thats for a pair.

A rule of thumb for SCs is more like %=play and >5%=fold.
SCs play far better in position, as do PPs, but PPs dont suffer as badly when out of position.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

is this a rough guide that can be used for implied odds purposes.
10:1 for hitting a set on the flop and 20:1 for playing SC.
also would having position or being out of position have any impact on these odds?

Implied odds of 24-1 are needed to justify limping in with every small PP. Similarly, in deep stacked tournament play this also holds true. When we're not deep stacked, these small pairs lose all value.

In this particular case, we're getting odds of 10-1 as if we hit our set, all the money will more than likely go in the middle, so essentially we're getting 10-1 on what should be an 8-1 shot, making it a worthwhile gamble.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Calling is certainly an option, but I might go on tilt if the river was a club and he bet again !!!! That would cost me more than the pot .

I doubt he would bet again, but he might check and call a push. Hmmm

Or at least check and call a value bet of say $200-$300. So I think calling and giving him a free card *may* be a good play here, though I hear ya on the tilt factor. For me I want an extra bet from him at some point in this hand. I'm not overly happy taking the pot with a push.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Or at least check and call a value bet of say $200-$300. So I think calling and giving him a free card *may* be a good play here, though I hear ya on the tilt factor. For me I want an extra bet from him at some point in this hand. I'm not overly happy taking the pot with a push.

Well then I should consider minraising, as this might lock him to the pot with AK.

However - if I push, he might well call with AxKc (or even plain old AK). This is big if he does. He doesnt have to call everytime for it to be a good move.

fuzzbox

Results:
Villain thought for AGGEEESSS and folded. I can only guess as to what he folded. He thought for a long time, which made me suspect that he had AK or that he held the Kc in his hand (either as part of KK or AK).
But thats all a guess - maybe he laid down 77.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Its got nothing to do with what happens on the flop.

He is being faced with having to call 105 extra in a pot. In order to make THIS call profitable, he needs to (yes you guessed it), make a profit on it. Since he would not have the best hand with a suited-connector preflop he would need to outFLOP somebody.

This does not happen often enough to make the call profitable. You do not flop the best hand often enough with something like 6c7c to make calling correct. When you do outflop somebody, you might get their stack, but you will have lost money in the long run.

With a pocket pair - you improve to a set 1 time in 8
With a suited connector - you improve to twopair 1 time in 30 (I think)
You also flop flushes, straights and open trips some times, but I dont know how often.

In order to make up for all the times you lose 105 (when you hit a flop worse than two-pair and have to check/fold), you need to win a whole lot more money than 800.

right i got this and thanks .
one more question though:
if we are playing small pairs to outflop people and are done with the hand when we dont hit our set,then is giving some one a free card to see the turn not a mistake?
suppose villain here had 88 and the turn was 8 as oppose to Q.
now we have given villain the chance to make his set for free.i know that you would prob not put any more money in the pot from then on and if you didnt hit your Q but in not a mistake not to take the pot on the flop then?

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Results:
Villain thought for AGGEEESSS and folded. I can only guess as to what he folded. He thought for a long time, which made me suspect that he had AK or that he held the Kc in his hand (either as part of KK or AK).
But thats all a guess - maybe he laid down 77.

Has to have been AxKc.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

suppose villain here had 88 and the turn was 8 as oppose to Q.
now we have given villain the chance to make his set for free.i know that you would prob not put any more money in the pot from then on and if you didnt hit your Q but is not not taking the pot on the flop ,not a mistake?

And what if the villain has AK and raises our flop bet?

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

And what if the villain has AK and raises our flop bet?

Or even worse - what if villain has TT and raises our flop bet.

Trajedy.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

right i got this and thanks .
one more question though:
if we are playing small pairs to outflop people and are done with the hand when we dont hit our set,then is giving some one a free card to see the turn not a mistake?
suppose villain here had 88 and the turn was 8 as oppose to Q.
now we have given villain the chance to make his set for free.i know that you would prob not put any more money in the pot from then on and if you didnt hit your Q but in not a mistake not to take the pot on the flop then?

Its only a mistake if we lose the pot or more money as a result.
Sometimes a free card can make villain believe that he can bluff us off the pot.

So - if the flop goes check/check, then turn comes X and villain bets, well I call here a lot. If villain bets the river, then I can safely fold, but if he checks then I can check behind, and win V 99 or 88 or TT or JJ or whatever. I make more money off those hands in the long run by checking the flop, than I lose by giving them a free card.

Sure he has AK sometimes, and I call a bet that I shouldnt have, but this is made up for by the times that I make money Vs his worse hands.

Also - sometimes *I* have AK here, so when he bets I am calling with the best hand, and so on and so forth.

You see how useful position is?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Its only a mistake if we lose the pot or more money as a result.
Sometimes a free card can make villain believe that he can bluff us off the pot.

So - if the flop goes check/check, then turn comes X and villain bets, well I call here a lot. If villain bets the river, then I can safely fold, but if he checks then I can check behind, and win V 99 or 88 or TT or JJ or whatever. I make more money off those hands in the long run by checking the flop, than I lose by giving them a free card.

Sure he has AK sometimes, and I call a bet that I shouldnt have, but this is made up for by the times that I make money Vs his worse hands.

Also - sometimes *I* have AK here, so when he bets I am calling with the best hand, and so on and so forth.

You see how useful position is?

Aha it has clicked finally.
Ready for cash games now me thinks so bring it on.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

Aha it has clicked finally.
Ready for cash games now me thinks so bring it on.

Heads up 10k ?

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Heads up 10k ?

No but how about HU $100 tourney if I win another $100 if I loose a few $50?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

No but how about HU $100 tourney if I win another $100 if I loose a few $50?

haha.
Double or halves?

ianmc38

Tell us when this $100 HU game is on. i'd like to spectate.

Gholimoli

how about 2nite any time from 6pm.
venue: PPP?

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

how about 2nite any time from 6pm.
venue: PPP?

Pst before you start lads I don't want to miss this lol

Gholimoli

Seems to be alot of interest in this. what do you say we charge for the viewing rights Fozz?

fuzzbox

I might be able to play tonight, but Im not sure yet.

Seems like it could be fun.

*must win bragging rights*

ianmc38

Tonight it must be before 9pm as I'm going to town to play a cash game, so wont be around past then.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Tonight it must be before 9pm as I'm going to town to play a cash game, so wont be around past then.

- what the hell do you have to do with it .

Hahaha.

I'll see what I can do about tonight. Hell, I might even play a cash game in town.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

- what the hell do you have to do with it .

Hahaha.

I'll see what I can do about tonight. Hell, I might even play a cash game in town.

I'm just an interested follower. It'll be like Ob1 Kenobi vs Anakin Skywalker, just without the lightsabres.

Gholimoli

yeah befor 9 as i may wanna go to play the SE 50 double chance.
i should be home from 5:30 onwards.
my mate is suppose to be coming over around 6 but i can make time for a few HU games.
bragging rights it is .
if we are gonna do best of 3 then $100 is fine.
if its best of 5 or any more then $50.
let me know Fozz as soon as you can so maybe i can ask my mate to come around 7 instead of 6.
should be good criac.