Getting Zen in cash games

fixer

I've lost my patience, and have been playing cash games too much like my tournaments (overly aggressive). I need to find some Zen and retool my cash games.

What would your recommendations be on readjusting play? By-the-book low-limit Miller/Sklanskey/Malmuth? Or tighten way up and only play Helmuth's Top 15? Any other ideas?

fuzzbox

Check more.

fixer

fuzzbox wrote:

Check more.

and sit at tables with you?

Gholimoli

fixer wrote:

I've lost my patience, and have been playing cash games too much like my tournaments (overly aggressive). I need to find some Zen and retool my cash games.

What would your recommendations be on readjusting play? By-the-book low-limit Miller/Sklanskey/Malmuth? Or tighten way up and only play Helmuth's Top 15? Any other ideas?

The book by miller is one of the best books on poker IMO.
Even though its aimed at limit games but it would really make a good read to get a perspective on poker concepts in general.

fuzzbox

Really - check more.
When I go through this same process - I find that its because I am raising a lot, often too much when out of position.

Often this is with big offsuit cards like AQo or AJo or ATo or KJo, and then I get myself into too much trouble on the flop.

I tend to only get flop action when I am behind for some reason. So I start to check more flops (especially in position), and now instead of them raising me and putting me to a tough decision, I have more control over the hand, and can call/raise them.

So I check more.

fixer

sounds like similar symptoms. How do you keep from fishtailing too far the other way and start to turn into a passive calling station? check/call with draws that match pot-odds, check/fold weaker hands, raise only with the nuts?

fuzzbox

No, but checking flops and turns more often is good. I find that raising a lot pf and then CBing too much makes ppl check/raise me too much and Im usually in there with a light hand if I am raising too much, so in order to cool it off, I check more on the flop.

Not every time, but more. I do it in a variety of situations, such as
-Ace high
- top pair
- good draw
- bad draw

Sometimes I bet the flop and check the turn with a good hand and so on.

This usually has dual effects - my flop bets get more respect, so I take down more pots that I shouldnt, and when they play back at me, I'm more inclined to believe them. Thus my decision are easier.
It also disguises my good hands/draws and villains become confused later in the hand - e.g. if I have AJ and check a J84 twotone board, and a 3 comes on the turn, villains with tt.99.77.66 etc come to life, and villains with QJ overplay their hands.
other e.g. if I have AhTh and the flop comes Jh8d4h and I check and the turn brings 3h, then once again villains can become confused.

jimbling

fuzzbox wrote:

if I have AJ and check a J84 twotone board, and a 3 comes on the turn, villains with tt.99.77.66 etc come to life, and villains with QJ overplay their hands.

what if a 6 comes on the turn?
now a player that would have folded to your flop bet is kicking ur ass...
isnt one of the unwritten rules of poker to not to give free cards when you've got the best hand?
Completely understand that one has to mix it up and do this occasionally.... but as a strategy?

fuzzbox

That rule is mainly for limit.
Sometimes the cost of trying to protect your weak hand is not worth the price you have to pay.

Also - if he does hit a set on the turn - he only does so 1 time in 25. If he bets the turn even 25% of the time, then we gain a LOT in the long run.

Im not advocating doing this everytime, but certainly do it more often.

jimbling

fuzzbox wrote:

That rule is mainly for limit.
Sometimes the cost of trying to protect your weak hand is not worth the price you have to pay.

Also - if he does hit a set on the turn - he only does so 1 time in 25. If he bets the turn even 25% of the time, then we gain a LOT in the long run.

Im not advocating doing this everytime, but certainly do it more often.

are you talking heads up only or something? because if so that is completely different. Otherwise, I would have to disagree with your argument there... you could be letting all sorts of crap hit for free.

fuzzbox

jimbling wrote:

are you talking heads up only or something? because if so that is completely different. Otherwise, I would have to disagree with your argument there... you could be letting all sorts of crap hit for free.

So what, your hand is not that good and cant stand any pressure anyway.

You reduce the risk of being semi-bluffed, you increase the chances of somebody overplaying a worse hand, and Im not suggesting that you do it everytime.

fixer

the thoughts forming in my head are probably right where I need to be...don't worry so much about "protecting" top pair, it's a weak(ish) hand so wait for it to improve a bit...don't get jiggy with draws, wait for them to hit...

Hectorjelly

The more you raise preflop, the less credit opponents are likely to give you for a real hand on the flop; so if you raise a lot you need to check some flops to save yourself being played back at constantly (or called down). In order to cover for the times you check and have nothing, you need to check sometimes with medium and strong hands. The trick is to have a balanced strategy that cant be exploited, but using your common sense to outwit your opponent in any one given hand.

An example is this; you raise preflop with AT. The flop is 24T. Most of the time you should bet this, but sometimes you should check. If you never check it then your opponent knows you either have nothing or are slowplaying a monster; so if he bets the turn he has a good chance of stealing the pot. This is all assuming the pot is relatively small compared to the stacks.

fixer

thanks HJ, that really hit the root of my problem.

I think for my own head, I am going to play extra tight for a while, to try and balance my brain out and remind me what it's like to be a rock and examine how I play in different situations.

jimbling

its no wonder i've been getting creamed in the higher level cash games

TacT

fixer wrote:

thanks HJ, that really hit the root of my problem.

I think for my own head, I am going to play extra tight for a while, to try and balance my brain out and remind me what it's like to be a rock and examine how I play in different situations.

just what I was going to suggest, tighten it up -- especially OOP. Start folding some AJ/AT maybe even AQ off suit utg (all depending how comfortable you are playing these OOP) and only play them in position. Set a limit on the pockets you're going to play OOP, start with anything above 8's or 7's and fold every pair below that, no KJ/QK suited. Work up a rock table image and then further down the line use it to your advantage to steal some pots when you may not have the best hand but have position on your opponents, they'll be concerned about your bets because you haven't been getting involved in many hands.

If you're constantly raising and continuation betting, your bets are not going to get as much respect as when you've been sitting there like a rock.