10/20 Jj

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 9:52am #1

10/20 6-max

I've only recently sat down. I know nobody. Villain in this hand and I recently played a pot that went as follows:
I had 89o in the SB, and complete, he checked in the BB. Flop QJT, I half pot (20), he calls. Turn blank, I bet 70 (close to pot), he minraises, I think and call. Turn blank, and I make an error and just check. He checks his KK behind and I take it down. So he can raise to slow somebody down, and try to take the pot cheap.

I opened raised the previous hand and all folded.

I have 2.3k and villain has 6k

Preflop
I find JJ UTG and open for 70, villain calls UTG+1 and the rest fold.

Flop (170)
9h 3h 3s
I bet 80, he makes it 200, I think and call

Turn (570)
6s
I bet 500, he minraises (1000), I push

Now, how do we like dem apples?

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 9:56am

fuzzbox wrote:

Now, how do we like dem apples?

Not much, I played an almost identical hand last night with an 8 high flop with QQ, similar villain. My push got greeted by his 88.

Hectorjelly · 03-03-2006 10:06am

When he min raises you again It seems like this isnt designed to slow you down, but trying to build a big pot. I would be concerned that he flat called you with QQ KK (maybe AA), and I dont think he folds any of these. However the min raise on the turn would be odd, you would think these hands would be concerned about the flush draw. There is a chance he has TT or AKs/AQs (played horribly), and a small chance of 99. I think a bluff gives up on the turn. So given all that I would probably fold.

Is this on party by the way?

Hectorjelly · 03-03-2006 10:07am

ianmc38 wrote:

Not much, I played an almost identical hand last night with an 8 high flop with QQ, similar villain. My push got greeted by his 88.

This board gives 99 a full house though, so the villain would probably play it differently

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 10:10am

Yes its party.

Do you think 99 makes it 200 on the flop?

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 10:12am

Sometimes. Do you think every villain with 99 will slowplay it?

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 10:15am

ianmc38 wrote:

Sometimes. Do you think every villain with 99 will slowplay it?

There doesnt seem to be a reason for 99 to raise here. I might have AK and fold.

Samba · 03-03-2006 10:16am

AK or as Hector suggested and smaller pp than yours.

califano · 03-03-2006 10:19am

fuzzbox wrote:

I bet 500, he minraises (1000), I push

So you dont put him on a higher pair then despite the suspicious turn min raise?

slightly of the topic
Would you have pushed if you had 6k?.
Im just wondering because i dont play cash games myself but would the moves you make like the push here sometimes be played different in a carbon copy situation if you had 6k same as villain?

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 10:21am

rounders123 wrote:

So you dont put him on a higher pair then despite the suspicious turn min raise?

slightly of the topic
Would you have pushed if you had 6k?.
Im just wondering because i dont play cash games myself but would the moves you make like the push here sometimes be played different in a carbon copy situation if you had 6k same as villain?

He might fold QQ

.

I think he has hearts more often than anything else really, which is why I played it like this.

Edit - I would be a whole lot more careful with 6k, than 2k.

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 10:26am

Samba wrote:

AK or as Hector suggested and smaller pp than yours.

I cannot imagine anyone at 10/20 minraising on the turn with AK unless he is an absolute buffoon. I'd be shocked if he didnt have a pocket pair. Smooth calling preflop means we are probably looking at 22-TT.

However, as the villain has position on the preflop raiser, we can't rule out QQ-AA

fixer · 03-03-2006 10:38am

fuzzbox wrote:

Yes its party.

Do you think 99 makes it 200 on the flop?

that was my thought, a made boat doesn't want to scare you off. he has nothing to worry about.

we can't count on him re-raising PF with QQ-AA based on previous hands, but since the last slow-play backfired and you've been aggressive the past few hands, one would *think* he would fire back at you PF. 88-22 wouldn't have reraised the flop big. The only PP I could see him with is TT.

AKs in hearts might have re-raised an aggro player on the flop, hoping you missed completely, and having up to 14 outs. Your push gives him 1:2.5 in the pot and 14 outs is about the same.

Either way, I think your JJ is favorite. I seldom analyse hands like this, but I am working on it more. Don't laugh if my logic is flawed.

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 10:38am

ianmc38 wrote:

I'd be shocked if he didnt have a pocket pair. Smooth calling preflop means we are probably looking at 22-TT.

However, as the villain has position on the preflop raiser, we can't rule out QQ-AA

This guys range is a whole lot wider than a pocket pair.

Whats about AhKh ?
AhQh?
two arbitrary hearts?

It would be strang for QQ+ to smooth call a raise in such early position, as that would invite others to call behind *him*, and create a multi-way pot when he is out of position Vs the rest of the field, with the PFR betting through him into the field.

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 10:49am

fuzzbox wrote:

This guys range is a whole lot wider than a pocket pair.

Whats about AhKh ?
AhQh?
two arbitrary hearts?

Why on Earth would he minraise the turn with any two hearts?

We've seen from the previous hand this guy likes to minraise with an overpair to the board.

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 10:49am

He had a str8 draw AND an overpair.

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 10:54am

fuzzbox wrote:

He had a str8 draw AND an overpair.

Would you minraise the turn with AhKh? Have you profiled this guy as a moron?

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 11:14am

Villain called with 9sTs ... yes indeedy, the mighty top pair on the flop, turned into a flush draw on the turn, and he managed to lob 2k into the pot.

He missed his draw however, and JJ was good.

I added him to my buddy list.

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 11:59am

fuzzbox wrote:

9sTs

What an idiot.

5starpool · 03-03-2006 12:00pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Have you profiled this guy as a moron?

He most certainly has now

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 1:31pm

5starpool wrote:

He most certainly has now

Its quite possible that he also added me to his buddy list as a result of this hand

.

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 1:40pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Its quite possible that he also added me to his buddy list as a result of this hand .

I know you won this hand, but i really dont like demz apples at all tbh. Against an averag donk, then this play is fine, as they'll pay off an overpair everytime.

Against good opposition I imagine a push in this spot is going to be -EV.

Surely you'll agree that a minraise from a decent player = red alert.

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 1:43pm

No thats not true.

A minraise from a minraising donkey at 200 or 400 levels = red alert

A minraise from a good player in position at these levels = many things including, but not limited to, red alert.

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 1:47pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I know you won this hand, but i really dont like demz apples at all tbh. Against an averag donk, then this play is fine, as they'll pay off an overpair everytime.

Against good opposition I imagine a push in this spot is going to be -EV.

Surely you'll agree that a minraise from a decent player = red alert.

Especially consider the action on all streets.
I think I made a reasonable play, based on what I reasonably expected to be a biggish draw.

933 board is pretty safe, why raise with 99 or a 3? Ok, sometimes he will have one of those hands and I'm in trouble, but far more often he is trying to take it down on the flop with a worse hand, or a big draw.
I call the flop and pot it on a non-heart, he minraises and I just dont believe him, as the 6 changes nothing.

I dont believe he has AA/KK/QQ. I dont believe he has 99 or a 3. Thus, I have the best hand unless he managed to hit a 6 with 66, so I go all-in.

Sometimes I'm wrong, but I'm right a lot too.

If he just called the flop, we would play this hand a whole lot different.

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 1:50pm

fuzzbox wrote:

A minraise from a minraising donkey at 200 or 400 levels = red alert

A minraise from a good player in position at these levels = many things including, but not limited to, red alert.

LOL. Well i think it's a fair enough assumption that the villain in these 2 hands is

fuzzbox wrote:

a minraising donkey

That didn't put you on red alert?

What's interesting is this guy had 6k in front of him from I assume a max $2k buy-in?

Surely you're not profiling this guy as a good player?

Gholimoli · 03-03-2006 1:52pm

fuzzbox wrote:

This guys range is a whole lot wider than a pocket pair.

Whats about AhKh ?
AhQh?
two arbitrary hearts?

It would be strang for QQ+ to smooth call a raise in such early position, as that would invite others to call behind *him*, and create a multi-way pot when he is out of position Vs the rest of the field, with the PFR betting through him into the field.

i dont think he has AK/AQh here .the minraises dont make since with them.
you have raised pre-flop,bet out on the flop ,called his min raise and then lead the turn again.
what do you think he puts you on?
AKs/AQs the way he has played shows he dosent want to get you off these hands but rather is milking you just enough to stay in if you have a flush draw.
TT+ ,again he is saying he wants you in even thinking you may have these holdings.
what does this suggest to me ?full house .he is prob got 99.
it makes sense with the falt call.the only thing that does not go with this IMO is that he raised to 200 on the flop.you would think he would just flat call with 99.

fuzzbox · 03-03-2006 1:56pm

ianmc38 wrote:

LOL. Well i think it's a fair enough assumption that the villain in these 2 hands is That didn't put you on red alert?

What's interesting is this guy had 6k in front of him from I assume a max $2k buy-in?

Surely you're not profiling this guy as a good player?

I just saw him minraise the turn with a draw earlier. Why can he not have a draw now?

Since the board is what it is, then a draw makes up a huge part of his range.

If he has a made hand, then its probably worse than mine, and he might put *me* on a draw and incorrectly call.

ianmc38 · 03-03-2006 1:56pm

Gholimoli wrote:

i dont think he has AK/AQh here .the minraises dont make since with them.
you have raised pre-flop,bet out on the flop ,called his min raise and then lead the turn again.
what do you think he puts you on?
AKs/AQs the way he has played shows he dosent want to get you off these hands but rather is milking you just enough to stay in if you have a flush draw.

That's exactly my train of thought. He has seen you show strength preflop, on the flop and on the turn and is still puttng in a milking raise. That betting pattern just doesn't fit in with anything less than TT+, 9x, 3x.

The raise on the flop only rules out 99 and 3x for me and we cannot rule them out 100% of the time. If someone with those holdings cold calls here they'll know it looks like a slowplayed monster, so why not raise?

10/20 Jj

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