Confuzzled!

Bp!

Just home from local tournament, am unsure of how i played last hand,

28 runners, 6 of us left, im second in chips, top 3 get paid, blinds are 5000/10000 , im on about 90,000+ , CL on about 150,000+ who isa good player, he came 1st last time he played which the only time ive played against him (where he bust me in 4th), is aggressive player who i think plays well

2 players limp, player on CO goes all in for 6,000, i limp on button with K8 of spades (very wrong? Or ok play?) SB folds and BB checks, so side pot of about 16,000

Flop comes Q 9 x with 2 spades CL bets 15,000 into side pot, now i think hes a good player so i give him respect for connecting, but this flop is good for me too IF i can get him off it, so i think i have enough chips to get him off the hand and pick up the 30,000 extra in the side pot, but i backed out of riskin my tournament and had a bit of a Ned Flanders moment and smoothed called,
Turn brought a K , CL bets 20,000 ?? did not expect that.. the more i thought i didnt put him on a K, if he had that meant he possibly had KQ , maybe K9 (doubtfull i thought) if he had KQ he would have tried pickin up the blinds at this stage of the tournament, the more i thought the more i was inclined to think he put me on the flush draw (which was true) and bet out with his Q so i moved in..he thought and called with K 10 :eek:

Woe i didnt expect that and left cursin myself for not pushin the fliop and forcing him of the hand

Do you lke his flop play? If i fold he picks up the 16,000+ on side pot which covers him callin the BB ?

i shoulda pushed the flop ....i shoulda....

EDIT:sorry flop didnt contain 9 as no straight was possible

De Deraco

after the limp, limp, all in i may have pushed if i sense weakness from the limpers and isolated the shorstack to get a 'free shot' at him.
If i dont push i fold as K8 is to easily dominated especially against 4 players.

on the flop id go with my instinct if i think he can be pushed of his hand id push.

Bp!

De Deraco wrote:

after the limp, limp, all in i may have pushed if i sense weakness from the limpers and isolated the shorstack to get a 'free shot' at him.
If i dont push i fold as K8 is to easily dominated especially against 4 players.

on the flop id go with my instinct if i think he can be pushed of his hand id push.

yeh your right on every point, i like the push preflop

and as for just callin the bet on the flop ...well brutal


It was his bet on flop that left me thinking....still dont know if i like it though with the all in(er) in the hand ..there is dead money there i guess.

i made alot of mistakes in that hand

Gholimoli

De Deraco wrote:

after the limp, limp, all in i may have pushed if i sense weakness from the limpers and isolated the shorstack to get a 'free shot' at him.
If i dont push i fold as K8 is to easily dominated especially against 4 players.

on the flop id go with my instinct if i think he can be pushed of his hand id push.

i dont agree with this at all.a push here does not make sense to me with K8s.
you have the blinds yet to act and also CL could have limped with a big hand.your stack is good in relation to others so no need to push.also pushing will take a way your positional advantage.your on the button and have position on every one post-flop ,why take that away by a push?
as for the post-flop play you deffo played very bad.
CL bets,why are you calling the bet?you need 4:1 odds to hit your flush on the turn.i think your getting slightly less than what you need so you dont have the odds to chase your flush on the turn.
if your willing to pay for the river as well in which case from flop to river you need 2:1 odds which you are getting.but then again if your willing to go to the river with this hand and paying on each street ,its very bad play just to call and you have to push.by pushing you have FE that coupled with your 9 outs and the odds your getting makes the push very +EV.
another thing that would make me push here is the weak lead from CL.his bet of 15K in to the pot of nearly 50K+ is a sign of weakness.

Bp!

A push preflop is not the worst here i dont think, unless you walkinto a big hand in the blinds , its unlikely anyone will limp with a big hand here even the CL, the guy all in seemed destined to go bust here and only pushed his less than BB cause of the limpers, with the blinds being a high % of everyones stack I was surprised to see anyone limpin so a push had huge fold equity here

I was gettin just about 3 to 1 on my flush draw , i intended pushing the flop (to pick the side pot up) when CL bet but after thinkin and honestly chickening out just called ...


EDIT oh and yeh Gh his 15,000 bet did seem very weak but due to player all in I gave him some respect for having a hand at this point, i was unsure was he trappin so i called to see how he'd play the turn

Hitman Actual

With your stack size, I dont think you should be getting involved with a hand that, most of the time at best, will just give you a draw on the flop. You're just going to end up bleeding chips off an already tight stack unless you play it fast. I probably fold K8s pre-flop with 9BBs; calling is not good, I think. Once you're on the flop, calling again isn't great because your stack is so small.

The only reason to get involved is because the hand might get checked down to the end, giving you a lot of cheap cards to hit a possibly decent hand.

BTW, was this in Mullingar?

Bp!

Yeh woke up this morning shakin my head for limpin with k 8 at those high blinds...

The tournament was in Longford, myself and a few friends setup a poker club couple of months back which is going well so far thankfully

JoeyJJ from boards and his brother played in one of our Sunday freezouts and was glad to hear he enjoyed himself

Hitman Actual

Bp! wrote:

The tournament was in Longford, myself and a few friends setup a poker club couple of months back which is going well so far thankfully

JoeyJJ from boards and his brother played in one of our Sunday freezouts and was glad to hear he enjoyed himself

Wow, didn't hear about that club. You should post the details on the tournament sub-forum when you have a regular schedule going. I know a lot of guys in the Mullingar area who would probably head down as well; I'll probably head down myself from time to time. Best of luck!

Bp!

lenny_leonard wrote:

Wow, didn't hear about that club. You should post the details on the tournament sub-forum when you have a regular schedule going. I know a lot of guys in the Mullingar area who would probably head down as well; I'll probably head down myself from time to time. Best of luck!

Cheers Lenny, would be great to see ye down, I was hesitant about advertising it on the forums at first as i wanted to see how it went for a couple of months (didnt want people travellin only to be let down ya know)

The sunday freezouts are pretty good, usually about 25 - 30 players with a €50 entry (side games for all who go bust too) , the game starts earlish around 5 or 6 on sunday and we decided to give everyone 10,000 in chips and 25 minute blinds (cause of self dealing) to have a proper game of cardsa and avoid overkill crapshoot towards the end, it can be a long game but personally i like them for that reason ! We're having one this sunday if any of ye are interested...all more than welcome down

pm me for details

(The thursday night games are fun but very loose, €30 buy in and 2 rebys at €15 so ya can imagine)

Gholimoli

This stages of the tourney with those blinds you can’t afford to wait for hands.
It’s all about position to be honest with you. Every one can play post-flop what separates really good post-flop play than average is being able to use your position to your advantage and not just playing your cards.
CL made a lead with a weak bet. Jump at him .sure you may be wrong and he may have a hand but you have outs even if he has a hand.
What’s more even with out your flush draw you need to be able to spot weakness here and be able to take these pots down.
Trust me no one wants to go bust at these stages of a tourney and they are willing to let a lot of hands go in the face of aggression.
I won a tourney about a week ago and the two hands that made me win it came nearly the end and in pot hands I had nothing till the river.
This is a typical situation where you can easily add 65K to your stack just with your position and get a commanding lead to play the rest of the FT.
Even though a push here is not terrible play but I feel that if you get called you’re more than likely dominated.
I would push here with something like 89s rather than Kxs.

De Deraco

Gholimoli wrote:

i dont agree with this at all.a push here does not make sense to me with K8s.
you have the blinds yet to act and also CL could have limped with a big hand.your stack is good in relation to others so no need to push.also pushing will take a way your positional advantage.your on the button and have position on every one post-flop ,why take that away by a push?

i'm not saying push here every time, its very much read based play and depends on my table image and the CL type of play. its my option other than folding.
his stack is not that good he didnt mention the others bar the cl but he has only 9 bb left. and with the all in he gets 41k if he wins or 12k if he loses.

Bp!

Gholimoli wrote:

This stages of the tourney with those blinds you can’t afford to wait for hands.
It’s all about position to be honest with you. Every one can play post-flop what separates really good post-flop play than average is being able to use your position to your advantage and not just playing your cards.
CL made a lead with a weak bet. Jump at him .sure you may be wrong and he may have a hand but you have outs even if he has a hand.
What’s more even with out your flush draw you need to be able to spot weakness here and be able to take these pots down.
Trust me no one wants to go bust at these stages of a tourney and they are willing to let a lot of hands go in the face of aggression.
I won a tourney about a week ago and the two hands that made me win it came nearly the end and in pot hands I had nothing till the river.
This is a typical situation where you can easily add 65K to your stack just with your position and get a commanding lead to play the rest of the FT.
Even though a push here is not terrible play but I feel that if you get called you’re more than likely dominated.
I would push here with something like 89s rather than Kxs.

The only thing that hindered me from pushin on the flop was the fact we had a player all in, i had been playin back at people all night to get to where i was and usually play quite aggressive myself, the K8 limp was one of a very limps i made all night but yes im kickin myself i didnt fold (regardless of outcome)

The villan of the hand is not a callin station but my feel of him was he was confident, my gut instinct was i was comin over the top of him here as the flop was strong for my hand (given i had enough chips to get him to fold anything other than a very strong hand) however i thought myself into beleving this was an intentional weak bet hopin i would come over the top (sometimes the brain is a useless muscle ) and i didnt want to fall for his trap , I gave hiim too much credit but he is very capable of bettin like this (small to look weak) so i took the weak option and tried peelin another card and judgin the strength of his hand on the turn, but by doing this i was basically tellin him i was drawing, because of this a non Spade King looked like a blank to him and i felt sure he held a Q (the point of all this post is really his flop play, he bet a flop from UTG position with Air when a player was all in,
and me to act behind him, with this the K also looked like a blank to me in his range of hands as i ruled out KQ for certain) so i played back at him on the turn and was surprised to see him turn over a K also

On a side point i agree with De Darco, (besides folding) the best option was to raise, based on CL's play he wont try limp/trap with a strong hand UTG (TBH i was surprised he limped at all) so pushin here as De Darco says leaves me in a postion to win 42K or at most lose 8K,

As for the comments on anyone can play preflop and good players play postflop etc... as you should know at this stage of a tournament, position, button etc all drop in value as play draws nearer to All in Poker so a push here is much better than a call and based on this particualr scenario i think the best play

Gholimoli

Bp! wrote:

The only thing that hindered me from pushin on the flop was the fact we had a player all in, i had been playin back at people all night to get to where i was and usually play quite aggressive myself, the K8 limp was one of a very limps i made all night but yes im kickin myself i didnt fold (regardless of outcome)

The villan of the hand is not a callin station but my feel of him was he was confident, my gut instinct was i was comin over the top of him here as the flop was strong for my hand (given i had enough chips to get him to fold anything other than a very strong hand) however i thought myself into beleving this was an intentional weak bet hopin i would come over the top (sometimes the brain is a useless muscle ) and i didnt want to fall for his trap , I gave hiim too much credit but he is very capable of bettin like this (small to look weak) so i took the weak option and tried peelin another card and judgin the strength of his hand on the turn, but by doing this i was basically tellin him i was drawing, because of this a non Spade King looked like a blank to him and i felt sure he held a Q (the point of all this post is really his flop play, he bet a flop from UTG position with Air when a player was all in,
and me to act behind him, with this the K also looked like a blank to me in his range of hands as i ruled out KQ for certain) so i played back at him on the turn and was surprised to see him turn over a K also

On a side point i agree with De Darco, (besides folding) the best option was to raise, based on CL's play he wont try limp/trap with a strong hand UTG (TBH i was surprised he limped at all) so pushin here as De Darco says leaves me in a postion to win 42K or at most lose 8K,

As for the comments on anyone can play postflop and good players play preflop etc... as you should know at this stage of a tournament, position, button etc all drop in value as play draws nearer to All in Poker so a push here is much better than a call and based on this particualr scenario i think the best play

i dont doubt your game at all.
ive played with you and your very capable player.
however i disagree with the comment you made about position loosing its value.it will loos its value if you have players making all in bets yes but here we have a situation where the hand has moved to post-flop play and you have position.this one hand is enough as it gives you a chacne to win a big pot.i do understand what your saying though about talking your self out of what you think is the correct play which happens to all of us.

RoundTower

Bp! wrote:

The sunday freezouts are pretty good, usually about 25 - 30 players with a €50 entry (side games for all who go bust too)

Details?

Bp!

Gholimoli wrote:

i dont doubt your game at all.
ive played with you and your very capable player.
however i disagree with the comment you made about position loosing its value.it will loos its value if you have players making all in bets yes but here we have a situation where the hand has moved to post-flop play and you have position.this one hand is enough as it gives you a chacne to win a big pot.i do understand what your saying though about talking your self out of what you think is the correct play which happens to all of us.

Its been a while but yeh i do remember us sharing a table (be it briefly on a PPP MTT) , i agree 100% with you in my post flop play was very poor, he showed weakness by limpin preflop and i think *if* im going to play the hand at all this is where i should have pounced on his weakness as pushin preflop when the CL limps is a strong move and most of the table usually notice this and fold . He outplayed me on the flop and all ya can do is tip your hat me thinks!

thanks for the replies guys, i messed up...oh well

Bp!

RoundTower wrote:

Details?

Sorry yeh, as everyone knows theres sweet F all places to play cards in the most midland towns on a regular basis so me and a few players set up a club around about december, we're not in it for profit or anything (though we do take 15% of our tournament income to pay for our tables etc which are far from casino standard) we just wanna have competitive games and tournaments rather than home games etc, i really didnt know whether to post about it or not, its really for anyone in the surrounding local area or counties who want to play cards on a regular basis

So every thursday of the week, Entry fee off €30 (15% is taken from total pool)

For this you get €6000 in chips , 2 rebuys are offered at €15 and an additional top up is there after level 6 (400/800) of €10,000 for €15

If more than 30 players play we pay top 4, if less than 30 we pay top 3 (with 4 gettin free entry to next tournament they attend) , highest hand of night = free entry and bounty on player who wins week before of €25

(we are very open to changes as we were unsure of how to aproach the rebuy tournament so any suggestions welcome)

of top 3 get paid 1st 50%, 2nd 30% and 3rd 20%

last night 1st took home €640 i think

Sundays freezout as above in other post

Personally if travellin from another town to play sunday would be the best option as the play isnt as loose and the standard of play is better, also a healthy startin stack makes for long play (though some people stil lfind a way to go bust early) , if i had my way the blinds would be an hour but im sick like that anyway !!