AKo Pre and post flop.

JTheViper

So shpuld I have bet preflop or not and did i bet enough? remember im out of position if I get called!No reads as I have just sat down a few hands ago.

** Game ID 705379523 starting - 2006-03-02 12:02:44
** Gallipoli [Hold 'em] (0.25|0.50 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- FreddROCK sitting in seat 1 with $165.35
- rodga sitting in seat 2 with $54.85 [Dealer]
- JTheViper sitting in seat 3 with $49.05
- Gliset sitting in seat 4 with $96.65
- kinmarka sitting in seat 5 with $49.90
- rorschakh sitting in seat 6 with $18.85

JTheViper posted the small blind - $0.25
Gliset posted the big blind - $0.50
** Dealing card to JTheViper: King of Clubs, Ace of Hearts
kinmarka called - $0.50
rorschakh raised - $1.50
FreddROCK folded
rodga called - $1.50
JTheViper raised - $5.25


Now here is the post flop action


Gliset folded
kinmarka called - $5.25
rorschakh called - $5.25
rodga called - $5.25

** Dealing the flop: King of Spades, 4 of Spades, 7 of Spades
JTheViper checked


Should I have bet?

ianmc38

Yes.

DapperGent

Yes. Full pot.

fuzzbox

Checking is fine oop in a multiway pot that has a monotone flop.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Checking is fine oop in a multiway pot that has a monotone flop.

And what's the plan with action behind you? I much prefer a bet on this flop.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

And what's the plan with action behind you? I much prefer a bet on this flop.

Why?
And whats your plan if you get called and the turn blanks?


My plan is to give up if I face stiff action on this board, and even if I face not much action, but multi-way then I will give up on the flop too. I dont figure to make much money in this spot - but I could lose a lot.

The pot is already big - 23 or something, and I only have 45 left. If I bet, how do I then get away?

Hitman Actual

I'm curious about the re-raise preflop? Is that really a good idea with a big Ace OOP? A genuine question, I'm not saying it's right or wrong one way or the other.

RoundTower

Bet. Get it all in if necessary. Someone will find a way to give you their stack with one pair or a flush draw or both (in the second case they might even be ahead, but not much). If I had 100 behind I would play differently.

I think the reraise preflop is good, and you can probably expect to get called by hands you dominate in this game. Calling is fine too.

Iago

If you bet rorschakh is going to call regardless, I would guess he's holding either Ax or a medium pp, there's a strong possibility that one of them is a spade.

If you check, rorschakh is going to push anyway, so you gain more information before this happens. As shortstacked as he is, if it's checked around he'll push and take his chances. The check is not consistent with your preflop action though, so maybe a half-pot bet will give you the information you require.

The benefit of letting him make this move are obvious, you get information on how much the other players like the flop before you have to bet. The drawback is that you may well give the free card that kills you, whether it's a spade or not!

If Kinmarka checks, rorschakh bets and fredrrock folds it's probably worthwhile making the call. If kinmarka bets rorschakh calls, you can fold and get away cheaply. If kinmarka checks, rorschakh bets and fredrrock calls, you can get away cheaply.

I check here, with the thought of calling/raising a bet from rorschakh if nobody else is involved, folding if two players bet or call a raise on this flop.

preflop without reads the raise is fine. The only time I change this line is if I know that at least one of the others in the pot will try and get smart with an A or K on the flop and call a re-raise. even then the reward doesn't always justify the risk

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Why?
And whats your plan if you get called and the turn blanks?


My plan is to give up if I face stiff action on this board, and even if I face not much action, but multi-way then I will give up on the flop too. I dont figure to make much money in this spot - but I could lose a lot.

The pot is already big - 23 or something, and I only have 45 left. If I bet, how do I then get away?

I'm leading for half the pot here. Your reraise preflop has large pocket pair or big slick written all over it. I'm not going to check-fold what is essentially a good flop for me. With a raise behind or 2 cold callers behind you, then we may have to laydown, but checking this flop is too weak passive IMHO.

Edit. If you bet then the other big stack will have to call or fold. If he checks and the small stack moves all in, then we're in a tough spot, having no idea what the other large stack is going to do.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I'm leading for half the pot here. Your reraise preflop has large pocket pair or big slick written all over it. I'm not going to check-fold what is essentially a good flop for me. With a raise behind or 2 cold callers behind you, then we may have to laydown, but checking this flop is too weak passive IMHO.

Edit. If you bet then the other big stack will have to call or fold. If he checks and the small stack moves all in, then we're in a tough spot, having no idea what the other large stack is going to do.

Well, I would check it here - honestly - this pot is multi-way so players tend to play more "honestly" on a multi-way monotone board. I hate being OOP here, and my hand cannot take any pressure at all. Checking lets me have a look at what the others do before I do anything, and I can always drop the hand if I feel bad about it.

Betting half pot here doesnt really achieve much, because spade draws are going to play with me in any case, and if I bet here, and get called, I kinda feel obliged to move-in on a non-spade turn, still not knowing where I am.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Betting half pot here doesnt really achieve much,

On the contrary. If we take this pot 1 in 3 times its an EV move. I'm positive we will take the pot down 1 out of 3 times even with this texture. We are also avoiding a sandwich effect as if the other big stack checks, we can be pretty sure that the shorty is going to try and make a move here a large % of the time. The other big stack will be more than aware of this and may trap check us knowing shorty will make a move. Betting into him makes him define his hand to some extent now. Not doing so is very bad IMHO. But thats probably why i play 1/2 and you play 5/10

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

On the contrary. If we take this pot 1 in 3 times its an EV move. I'm positive we will take the pot down 1 out of 3 times even with this texture. We are also avoiding a sandwich effect as if the other big stack checks, we can be pretty sure that the shorty is going to try and make a move here a large % of the time. The other big stack will be more than aware of this and may trap check us knowing shorty will make a move. Betting into him makes him define his hand to some extent now. Not doing so is very bad IMHO. But thats probably why i play 1/2 and you play 5/10

Dont be so down on yourself. 1/2 is a good level. .

How can you say -

"Im positive that we will take the pot down 1 out of 3 times" in one breath and
"we can be pretty sure that the shorty is going to tyr to make a move here a large % of the time" in another?

Those two dont compute.

The bet itself would show positive expectation if we could expect to win with a bet. However, we have a hand that is worth more than that - our hand has some showdown value - but we dont know how much yet.

If we bet - we would like everybody to fold - thus we are essentially bluffing, but our hand is better than that.
Nobody will fold a big spade to our bet - so our bet often wont work out the way we want - and sometimes, somebody will move-in on us, and we wont know if we have the best hand or not - which can lead to one of two types of mistake - A. folding the best hand in a big pot, or B. calling with the worst hand (drawing almost dead).

If we check - then we can have a look at the action (if any) before we make a move. If it gets checked around, and no spade comes on the turn - then we can bet out, and if a spade comes, well nothing much was lost, so we can safely check/fold.

If only shorty bets, then we can surely call him, and big stack would find it difficult to overcall without a hand, so if he comes in, then we can shutdown completely, as, to him, our hand looks like its a big one, so if he plays he must have a big hand.

If a biggy gets involved, then we can just fold it here, as we are not likely to be very far ahead, and we could be drawing almost dead.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

If we check - then we can have a look at the action (if any) before we make a move. If it gets checked around, and no spade comes on the turn - then we can bet out, and if a spade comes, well nothing much was lost, so we can safely check/fold.

I don't see the merits of waiting until the turn for this. Spade on the turn we may have just given someone a free card that now beats us. No spade, we could be walking into a slowplayed flush draw. if we bet half the pot and the big stack calls us with the nut flush draw, he's making a mistake, as we're giving him 3-1 on a 4-1 shot.

fuzzbox wrote:

If only shorty bets, then we can surely call him, and big stack would find it difficult to overcall without a hand, so if he comes in, then we can shutdown completely, as, to him, our hand looks like its a big one, so if he plays he must have a big hand.

Will we not get this information by betting the flop? If we bet half the pot, and get called by the big stack, we know he has a hand. If not we isolate the shortstack whos push we don't mind calling.

fuzzbox

Waiting until the turn increases your equity Vs flush draws (if a spade does not hit), plus its less likely that you get semi-bluffed on the turn.
Plus, not betting now - means you are not as married to the pot as you might be if you stick 12-15 in now, and have 30 behind if action happens on the flop.

Also - what kind of hand limps UTG and then calls a raise and a reraise to 10x BB???