Shortstack push

Mmmm_Lemony

I am looking for the standard time for moving all in, in an mtt.

Blinds 150/300, dues to go up in 7/8 minutes

Most stacks at your table are between 7500 to 8500. 1 player has about 12000 and the next shortest to you has about 6000.

You have 2000 and the blind has just passed you.

I pushed with K7d and no-one called. So I was up to 2450. Next hand I get j7h and push and i'm out by the CL.

I felt I could have lasted another orbit at least and i know it was a bad move with j7 but the table was playing very tight. I was a little tilty.

The question I am asking is how many BB's before you make the decision to push. Obviously card dependant but is there a standard amount. How low can you let your stack get before a push is imminent.

What is your pushing range too.

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

Well you don't want to leave it too late because then doubling, tripling or even luckily quadrupling up is going to leave you shortstacked STILL! Yet there's also that impatient feeling of dread as the button moves towards you that can make you feel like it's this hand or never... the worst feeling in the world is to pass 9Ts or ATo or something just before your blind and then feel forced to go all in with 27o on your big blind!

That's as far as I've gotten though, anyone have some hard numbers to help you out in these situations?

ArmaniJeanss

7-8 BBs is my 'push' territory.

Gholimoli

First of all your J7 move was not bad at all.
Don’t be put off by the results sure you would not be saying it was a bad move had you won the hand.
a push with less than premium hand is a move that will only be +EV if you have FE.for example you can say that if yo push you will only get called by the top 5% of the cards which means 95% of the times you will win the blinds. of the 5% you will get called there will be a certain % that your hand will win and that’s how you calculate if the move is +EV or -EV.
but notice that what generally makes a push +EV is the fact that ppl will fold for example 95% of the time. what makes them fold is the threat that your stack posses. the less that threat,the less they fear a call hence you will get called by a much higher % cards than the top 5%.for example you will get called by the top 30%.this automatically turns a +EV into -EV.
So you should never wait until your stack looses its threat potential simply because your push will be called by higher percentage of cards.
also when pushing and low stacked try to pick out your spot.
for example if you have the CL on BB and you push and every one folds to him ,he may just call with alot of holding cuz he does not fear getting crippled by your stack if he looses.
but if CL is to your left even though your stack may not be a threat to him but other ppl who are yet to act after him may have a hand and he may fold a hand that he would other wise call with if in a later position.

Gholimoli

First of all your J7 move was not bad at all.
Don’t be put off by the results sure you would not be saying it was a bad move had you won the hand.
a push with less than premium hand is a move that will only be +EV if you have FE.for example you can say that if yo push you will only get called by the top 5% of the cards which means 95% of the times you will win the blinds. of the 5% you will get called there will be a certain % that your hand will win and that’s how you calculate if the move is +EV or -EV.
but notice that what generally makes a push +EV is the fact that ppl will fold for example 95% of the time. what makes them fold is the threat that your stack posses. the less that threat,the less they fear a call hence you will get called by a much higher % cards than the top 5%.for example you will get called by the top 30%.this automatically turns a +EV into -EV.
So you should never wait until your stack looses its threat potential simply because your push will be called by higher percentage of cards.
also when pushing and low stacked try to pick out your spot.
for example if you have the CL on BB and you push and every one folds to him ,he may just call with alot of holding cuz he does not fear getting crippled by your stack if he looses.
but if CL is to your left even though your stack may not be a threat to him but other ppl who are yet to act after him may have a hand and he may fold a hand that he would other wise call with if in a later position.

Mmmm_Lemony

Thanks gholi.

How low before you pick out your spot. When does it decome an 'uncomfortable' stack size?

Gholimoli

Mmmm_Lemony wrote:

Thanks gholi.

How low before you pick out your spot. When does it decome an 'uncomfortable' stack size?

if you add the BB+SB at any level and that’s how much you have to pay per orbit.
if you divide this number by your stack you will get a number called M in poker lingo. this M signifies how many orbits you have left before you get blinded to death.
for example if blinds are 150/300 then your paying 450 an orbit. if your stack is 2400 then 2400/450=5 which means you can stay alive for another 5 orbits providing blinds stay the same and you don’t win any pots in the mean time.
People have different styles but for me 5 is the key number.
any less than that then your stack looses its FE.i may sometimes wait till its for because the situation forces me to but generally i make a move when im around 5.aso remember you want to be the person opening the pot for a push with any 2 to be good .im you have a limper already in the pot then you will have to adjust your hand selection.

Mmmm_Lemony

M = (BB + SB) * 5

So

@ 200/400 you should have +3000

@ 300/600 you should have +4500

etc..

Thanks. This really helps alot.

Gholimoli

Mmmm_Lemony wrote:

M = (BB + SB) * 5

So

@ 200/400 you should have +3000

@ 300/600 you should have +4500

etc..

Thanks. This really helps alot.

M=(BB+SB)/stack not (BB+SB)*5 .
the M=5 is just an indicator that you sould make a move very soon .
you use 5 through out the tourney from middle stage onwards to govern how you should play and also use it to decide wheather or not you should be playing certain starting hands or not.
in your original example blinds 150/300 your M is M=(300+150)/2000=4.4
which is time to make a move.

denachoman

Gholimoli wrote:

M=(BB+SB)/stack not (BB+SB)*5 .
the M=5 is just an indicator that you sould make a move very soon .
you use 5 through out the tourney from middle stage onwards to govern how you should play and also use it to decide wheather or not you should be playing certain starting hands or not.
in your original example blinds 150/300 your M is M=(300+150)/2000=4.4
which is time to make a move.

It's also crucial to be first player to make a bet when you make a shortstacked all-in move. If one or 2 players have limped in front of you wait for the next hand unless you are really desperate.

Iago

If you're going to push and either don't want a call or want to win a race you should try to follow the following rules imho, some are obvious and I'm sure there'll be disagreements..

1. Try to push only when the players left to act are medium stacks. Big stacks aren't afraid of you and shortstacks have to take chances. Medium stacks are the best target because if they call and lose they're in trouble. This greatly reduces the range of hands they'll call with.

2. You have to try and maximise your FE, there's no point pushing when you're down to 2-3 BB's. Anything from 10BBs down you should be looking for a spot where you can either steal the blinds or double up. You won't do that if your raise is insignificant compared to the Pot. Once you're down to 4*BB or less you're not scaring anyone away.

3. Pick your spot, if it's a full table and the blinds have just passed you, don't feel you have to push because you're on the button or cutoff. If you have a hand that's fine, but if you don't then wait. People expect shortstacks to push from the cutoff and button trying to steal blinds, their hand range increases as a result.

4. Try not to push with just any two cards, at the end of the day you want to give yourself a chance if you're called. Suited connectors, pairs and A8 plus are all good. as are KQ,KJ,QJ,QT etc.

5. You have to be first into the pot unless you're holding a very strong hand. If there's a raise in front of you and you're holding 66-33 or even A8 or lower throw it away. I know you're shortstacked but at very best, you're probably 50/50 here. The next hand you may have an oppotunity to bet uncontested or be in a stronger position.

6. don't panic, don't feel you have to push and push. Wait for the right opportunity (bearing in mind Point 2 above)

these are the things I run through when I'm in this position