Downloading tv programs, what's the law say?

jjmax

Hi,

If I download TV shows am I breaking the law.
For example, is downloading the latest episodes of Lost, for free, using torrent illegal?
From what I can tell, the shows have been recorded and then uploaded.

aphex™

If one was using bit torrent they would be done for distributing pirate material.

ambro25

aphex&#8482 wrote:

If one was using bit torrent they would be done for distributing pirate material.

Not if the material uploaded/downloaded is freeware or open source or, generally, distributed with the consent of the author. And that goes for any client (or FTP or HTTP downloads).

But the OP question is interesting. Quite aside from delving into the Copyright Act (no time), could an analogy be drawn with recording TV broadcasts on a VCR and lending the tape to a friend who missed the show?

TheMonster

what if one used a newsgroup? no upload involved!!

aphex™

ambro25 wrote:

Not if the material uploaded/downloaded is freeware or open source or, generally, distributed with the consent of the author. And that goes for any client (or FTP or HTTP downloads).

Name me a tv show that is freeware or open source. He is talking about using bit torrent to download tv shows. It keeps a good track of what you've uploaded.

TheMonster wrote:

what if one used a newsgroup? no upload involved!!

As far as I know all recent cases about mp3 pirates in Ireland are to do with upload. I presume mp3s come under the same guise as tv shows (copyrighted material).I don't think the legislation covers downloading. They presumably would have got them for it if it did.

I have not read the legislation, though.

ALso of note: the ISP association of Ireland's members have agreed to turf over customer data to the Gardaí if they recieve a written request. Its not always up to the media companies or industry groups eg IRMA to take the case themselves however I don't think the gardaí have ever done this.

grumpytrousers

jjmax wrote:

If I download TV shows am I breaking the law.

Before you ask a question as obvious as 'Am I breaking the law' just ask yourself the question "Will sales of this product (eventually) on CD/Vinyl/DVD be affected if the world and his wife engaged in the behaviour I am presently engaged in'

If the answer is yes (and in your case, it is!) then what you're doing is illegal.

Whether you'll get caught or not, how you'd be detected, and who - exactly - the hell is getting hurt by your behaviour is beside the point...you asked 'bout the legality.

aphex™

grumpytrousers wrote:

Before you ask a question as obvious as 'Am I breaking the law' just ask yourself the question "Will sales of this product (eventually) on CD/Vinyl/DVD be affected if the world and his wife engaged in the behaviour I am presently engaged in'

If the answer is yes (and in your case, it is!) then what you're doing is illegal.

haha.. no its illegal if the Dáil has made legislation saying that.

If me and the whole world come on boards and say a tv show is crap and that stunts dvd sales then that is not illegal.
Layman!

Anyways downloading and not uploading, prehaps not illegal activity. However suggesting where one might obtain such material and how (specifically) is. That comes from the EU i think.

grumpytrousers

aphex&#8482 wrote:

haha.. no its illegal if the Dáil has made legislation saying that.

If me and the whole world come on boards and say a tv show is crap and that stunts dvd sales then that is not illegal.
Layman!

Anyways downloading and not uploading, prehaps not illegal activity. However suggesting where one might obtain such material and how (specifically) is. That comes from the EU i think.

Quite right. Your pedantry is noted and, indeed, applauded!

In terms of 'the whole world and his wife' I suppose I meant my 'idiot proof' test was meant to apply to the notion of downloading/uploading. As for the Dail not having provided for it - again - i suppose it depends on how you take delivery of the episode. If your cousin in New York emails you as one big file the next episode of Lost you're possibly okay. But if you use one of the clients such as Bit Torrent etc, then the nature of the file coming down is that you also host bits of the copyrighted file for others. And by my reading of Section 140 (1) (e) of the Copyright and Related Rights Act,

" (e) otherwise than in the course of a business, trade or profession, makes available to the public to such an extent as to prejudice the interests of the owner of the copyright, a copy of a work which is, and which he or she knows or has reason to believe is, an infringing copy of the work, shall be guilty of an offence."

you are possibly in breach.

You certainly aren't downloading for the purposes of your work. By the nature of the technology, certain segments of the copyrighted work are being made available to members of the public and you certainly do know that the material in question is protected by copyright. You also (probably) know that the person uploading isn't doing it as part of their job, and that THEY are in breach (although not in the territory).

Put it like this - the act doesn't say explicitly "Don't be downloading the latest of episode of 24 of t'internet, it's very bold", but I think it's only a matter of time before the above section is called into use. How the friggers get hold of the records from the ISPs is the only thing stopping 'em!!!

ambro25

grumpytrousers wrote:

Before you ask a question as obvious as 'Am I breaking the law' just ask yourself the question "Will sales of this product (eventually) on CD/Vinyl/DVD be affected if the world and his wife engaged in the behaviour I am presently engaged in'

If the answer is yes (and in your case, it is!) then what you're doing is illegal.

So I am illegally taping Lost off RTE with my VCR?

grumpytrousers

nope, (and I really ought to remove my silly 'world and his wife test' from above, but sod it!!!), there's some term (the name of which eludes me!) but it could have been 'time shifting', which was the subject of a whole raft of litigation between JVC (i think) and the movie industry back when VCRs were new, and which allows the recording of TV programmes (VCR manufacturers won, obv). There's also guidlelines like personal use, etc...the copyright act mentions 'em as well...

See - the argument put forward by the hardware manufacturers was that people using VCRs was that by, say, taping Coronation Street or LOST or Goodfellas off the telly, you were in effect time-shifting. Adapting the television schedule to fit your own busy life. It's why you can use your SKY + box to record stuff as well, although I'm nearly sure there's technology inbuilt to stop you exporting certain stuff to an external archive device.

However, by taking something from (effectively) the future to suit your own busy schedule...you don't have the same grounds to stand on. It's a fine line.

It would seem that the courts, or at least the law, 'buy into' the idea of "I'm at needlework classes on a monday night so I have to tape LOST and watch it at my leisure" but not so keen on "I'm at needlework classes on a monday night so i've downloaded from the states on Bit Torrent as many future episodes as i can so i can watch 'em at my leisure"

jjmax

Interesting stuff.

It could start getting silly now, but....
If you were a really nice person, and you made copies of what you'd taped during needlework to give (for free) to all the other people in needlework that missed Monday's episode of Lost, are you then breaking the law?
Isn't that essentially what is happening, on a grand scale, on the internet?
After all, Lost season 2 is not commercially available yet, and until recently was not available on Irish TV.

Victor

jjmax wrote:

If you were a really nice person, and you made copies of what you'd taped during needlework to give (for free) to all the other people in needlework that missed Monday's episode of Lost, are you then breaking the law?

Most certainly you are. You wouldn't be able to claim personal use / fair use or anything like that. You would be able to invite a select few of your friends from the class over to watch it afterwards, but not the whole class (within reason, I'm not sure how popular needlework is these days).

ambro25

ambro25 wrote:

So I am illegally taping Lost off RTE with my VCR?

That was a rethorical question

Re. my earlier post about the legality of BitTorrent, there ya go:

BitTorrent Is So Legal

Despite the fact that certain copyright owners would love to see Bit Torrent disappear forever, the fact remains that it is a perfectly legal technology for distributing files (not to mention efficient as all get out). The Creative Commons has posted a bunch of free, legal .torrents for various audio files, a few movies, and even some videogames. That South African open-source documentary looks worth downloading for starters.

LegalTorrents.com

© Wired News

Re. the time-shift defense to infringement, indeed time-shifting has always been assumed to be for anterior broadcasts (never any mention of posteriority in any case law as of yet, i.e. time-shifting "in advance" thanks to the US relative).

But note that the copyright infringed by up/down-loaders is that of ABC (is it ABC? can't remember who broadcasts Lost first in the US), and that it is a broadcast copyright, not the copyright that attaches to the recording that is passed to ABC for broadcasting. In other words, uploading may be construed as an unauthorised re-broadcasting of the ABC material. But insofar as US citizens are concerned, the time-shifting defense applies to them (inasmuch as they "tape" Lost, already publicly broadcast, on VHS/Betamax/HDD).

Victor

It looks like they are coming after people, although it looks like Willie Dillon / his sub-editor doesn't really understand the difference between up/down.

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/7524955?view=Eircomnet

Bills not music to parents'
From:The Irish Independent
Saturday, 4th March, 2006

Unwitting mums and dads hit with fees for kids' illegal music downloads

Willie Dillon

UNWITTING parents are being hit for bills running into thousands of euro because their children are illegally downloading music from the internet.

In many cases, the parents are unaware of their kids' activities, and may not know the slightest thing about downloading.

A crackdown by the major record companies on illegal Irish downloaders is leaving many shocked parents seriously out of pocket.

To date, the average payouts to the music industry in damages and costs has been €2,500.

In some cases, the bill may be significantly higher. Failure to pay up will almost certainly mean a court appearance.

Parents are being forced to pay because the internet connection used by their children is registered in their name.

The downloaders are being caught in a music industry fishing operation based in New York.

Investigators trawled illegal download sites for songs popular with Irish music fans.

When they found the songs on Irish computers, they were able to see with a single mouse click what other downloaded songs were on the same computer. One Irish music fan was found with 5,000 songs on their system.

The Irish Recorded Music Association (IRMA), on behalf of a number of major music companies, recently went to the High Court in Dublin forcing Irish internet providers to disclose the names of nearly 50 people whose computers were tracked in the investigation.

Solicitors' letters have been sent to suspected downloaders who are being given 14 days to respond.

The vast majority of downloaders are thought to be young people using modern peer-to-peer software, such as that invented by file sharing pioneer American student Shawn Fanning, who invented Napster.

In all cases, the music on their computers was available for "sharing" with potentially millions of other illegal downloaders worldwide.

But it is possible some downloaders here were unaware their collection could be accessed by other computer users.

The music industry action is initially targeted at those with the largest number of illegally downloaded songs on their computers.

IRMA hopes the threat of legal action will frighten others illicitly taking music off the net and persuade them to sign up to legal, pay-for, music sites.

One shocked father said last night: "The first I knew of anything was when I got the solicitor's letter. My two sons are over 18 and have accepted responsibility.

"But to be honest, I don't think they realised they were actually sharing the files.

"If they have to cough up, so be it. At the moment, the letter is in the hands of my solicitor," he said.