Out of Postion in Cash Games Part 1

willis

.50/1 hand but stakes shouldnt really matter as this is in general and both 6 handed tables:

Hand 1: your sb, utg+1 makes it $4, 1 caller and u call with 99. The flop is 8 5 2 rainbow.

Your Options: (1) Bet out - If you do then how much? By betting out do you not leave yourself open to a reraise by the raiser representing an overpair? Are you giving away your hand by betting? How do you play the turn if your called?
(2) Check - Do you do so with the intention of check-raising? Do you think a check raise gains much info if you are called? Are you not worried about giving a free card if you check/check call? How do you play the turn if you check raise/check call?

There may/may not be any correct answers here. For rguments sake lets presume your playing good players and you all have 100bbs

ianmc38

willis wrote:

.50/1 hand but stakes shouldnt really matter as this is in general and both 6 handed tables:

Hand 1: your sb, utg+1 makes it $4, 1 caller and u call with 99. The flop is 8 5 2 rainbow.

Your Options: (1) Bet out - If you do then how much? By betting out do you not leave yourself open to a reraise by the raiser representing an overpair? Are you giving away your hand by betting? How do you play the turn if your called?
(2) Check - Do you do so with the intention of check-raising? Do you think a check raise gains much info if you are called? Are you not worried about giving a free card if you check/check call? How do you play the turn if you check raise/check call?

There may/may not be any correct answers here. For rguments sake lets presume your playing good players and you all have 100bbs

For me I will nearly always always bet out. You don't want to give any AT-AK holding a free card in this spot(common raising hands at 0.50/1).

If i'm raised, i'll often come back over the top depending on the villain, for information on where I stand.

Edit: Over the top of a villain who is very aggressive, likes overbetting overcards or small pairs on raggedy flops.

I may check-raise if I know the villain likes to thrown in a few continuation bets. If I check-raise and I get a caller, I'll usually lead the turn, depending on the turn card/villain of course.

Check calling is a 100% no for me in this spot.

RoundTower

ianmc38 wrote:

If i'm raised, i'll often come back over the top depending on the villain, for information on where I stand.

If you get called at that stage the only information you have is that you wish you hadn't put 70% of your chips in the pot.

I usually lead out here, if someone has the balls to raise me with AK or less they can have the pot. I also lead out with a set/maybe 67 or 34.

Running Bing

Id want to just take this pot down, theres a lot of card that could hurt you on the turn. your hands just to vulnerable not to protect it. I wouldnt be afraid of giving info about my hand by putting in a big bet as id like to get overcards and small connectors to fold up.

The C Kid

ianmc38 wrote:

If i'm raised, i'll often come back over the top depending on the villain, for information on where I stand.

Cue HectorJelly.

ianmc38

RoundTower wrote:

If you get called at that stage the only information you have is that you wish you hadn't put 70% of your chips in the pot.

I usually lead out here, if someone has the balls to raise me with AK or less they can have the pot. I also lead out with a set/maybe 67 or 34.

Again note "Depending on the villain". If i have someone marked in as overplaying underpairs or overcards, then im definitely coming back over the top.

If i have notes to the contrary or its an unknown opponent, then i'll smooth call or drop them. One or the other. The problem with smooth calling is if another rag comes on the turn.

Whats your play then? Check and he'll definitely bet. So is your line here check-fold/check-call Or do we prefer to bet-call or bet-fold if raised? And if we intend on check-folding or bet-folding, then we must be calling on the flop for set value on the turn which is just ridiculous.

If I reraise on the flop I'm saving alot tougher decisions on later streets, but again it is all depenedent on the opponent.

willis

RoundTower wrote:

If you get called at that stage the only information you have is that you wish you hadn't put 70% of your chips in the pot.

I usually lead out here, if someone has the balls to raise me with AK or less they can have the pot. I also lead out with a set/maybe 67 or 34.

If you lead out Dave and get called, how do you play the turn? What do you put your opponent on if he has just called, and remember were saying that these are good players. I like betting out here on the flop against poor players, but against good players i feel my bet will get picked off as players(including myself) would often reraise this "feeler type" bet.

Also Ian the come over the top malarky...suicidal m8

ianmc38

willis wrote:

Also Ian the come over the top malarky...suicidal m8

Again read

ianmc38 wrote:

Depending on the villain

ianmc38

willis wrote:

against good players i feel my bet will get picked off as players(including myself) would often reraise this "feeler type" bet.

Yes. Exactly. Most "good" players will often raise a leading bet on this flop with AK.

willis

yes but villains dont play the exact same way every single time. if u have notes saying he overplays overcards/underpairs then you will come ott?but surely there are times when this type of player actually has the goods so its technically a guessing game your playing for the majority of your stack. also by coming over the top your probably giving him odds to call you even with just 2 overs

ianmc38

So are you trying to say, fold if a good player raises you when you have an overpair to the board on the flop?

Or are we saying, lets smooth call his flop raise?

What if a blank comes on the turn? What is our line here?

We have absolutely no idea whether we are ahead or behind, so with any serious action is it going to be a fold?

The possibilities for the turn.

1. Lead out and win the pot
2. Lead out and get raised - I assume we're auto-folding here
3. Check-call - Leaving us another crippling decision on fifth street
4. Check-fold - May as well fold on the flop
5. Check-raise - Don't think we're doing this?
6. Check-check - Again more tough decisions on 5th street

HJ should be getting out of bed soon, so we'll have some info from him!

willis

This is why i posted this hand because there are so many tough decisions. By betting out we may be reraised by and have to fold to a hand that we beat. Also by betting out the only hands that fold are ones we beat. the bet/3 bet approach could be so costly in the long run imo as if you bet the pot and are reraised the pot your basically all-in here with no idea where you stand.

The check raise on the flop may be better, but again we have problems on 4th street if we get called. RoundTower said he would fold if someone has the balls to reraise his lead bet on the flop, we may be folding the best hand here many times.

Theres not right or wrong answers, im jsut trying to gauge how different players play this hand so keep the responses coming. This type of hand is why i HATE being OOP

ianmc38

willis wrote:

This is why i posted this hand because there are so many tough decisions. By betting out we may be reraised by and have to fold to a hand that we beat. Also by betting out the only hands that fold are ones we beat. the bet/3 bet approach could be so costly in the long run imo as if you bet the pot and are reraised the pot your basically all-in here with no idea where you stand.

The check raise on the flop may be better, but again we have problems on 4th street if we get called. RoundTower said he would fold if someone has the balls to reraise his lead bet on the flop, we may be folding the best hand here many times.

Theres not right or wrong answers, im jsut trying to gauge how different players play this hand so keep the responses coming. This type of hand is why i HATE being OOP

It is an interesting one alright. I do see what you mean though about 3 betting the flop. You''ll generally take it down against a hand you beat, but if your reraise is called, you are building a large pot in a hand where you dont know if you're ahead or behind, when keeping this pot small is probably optimal. Tough spot.

Bozzer

ianmc38 wrote:

If i'm raised, i'll often come back over the top depending on the villain, for information on where I stand.

Hmmm...

ianmc38 wrote:

Again note "Depending on the villain". If i have someone marked in as overplaying underpairs or overcards, then im definitely coming back over the top.

This is the reason you re-raise then, not for information. You already have the information that your opponent has a wide enough raising range on the flop that your hand fares to be best. You re-raise because you think you make more $ re-raising the flop then calling and playing further streets.
You will indeed find out that you are screwed if your opponent calls, but this is not ‘why’ you re-raised.
A lot of players dread the thought of folding the best hand and choose a good night’s sleep over maximising EV. Don’t fall into this trap.

Also, I don’t mean to nitpick but you should learn the proper use of bet,raise and re-raise when describing a hand.

ianmc38

Bozzer wrote:

Hmmm...

A lot of players dread the thought of folding the best hand and choose a good night’s sleep over maximising EV. Don’t fall into this trap.

Also, I don’t mean to nitpick but you should learn the proper use of bet,raise and re-raise when describing a hand.

So whats your line in this hand Bozzer? Are you saying lead out and fold to a raise?

I don't mean to nitpick but it would be nice to get your viewpoint on it rather than a cryptic explanation.

Rnger

May I remind theres 2 other players in this hand other than yourself.

I think you have to bet the pot and try take this here. Against 4 potential overcards and straight draws you simply cant risk a free card.

fuzzbox

This is a common and tough spot.

I use a couple of different lines here.

1. Lead out - if I get raised, then I tend to give up because if UTG raises, then he would still have another player to act behind him, so he should be less inclined to be screwing around. If the 3rd player raises, then he probably has a hand.

2. Check
- If the action goes - bet, fold, then I either
A. Call and lead a blank turn, shutting down if called.
B. Raise to try to take the pot now if villain C-bets often, and if I get called, then I dont put anymore money in Vs anybody who can play.

- If the action goes - bet, call or bet, raise, then I just fold.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Yes. Exactly. Most "good" players will often raise a leading bet on this flop with AK.

Would they ?
Then you should lead into them every time, and check/raise all-in on every turn when you have TP or better!!!

I assure you good players will mix up between raising, calling and folding.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Check calling is a 100% no for me in this spot.

Check/call is fine here ... really. Your hand is not that strong, you dont have to use up all your stack to protect your weak hand.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I assure you good players will mix up between raising, calling and folding.

Of course, thats why I said often not always. Put on your reading specs ffs.

Can i recommend the attached soundtrack for you and bozzer.

MrPillowTalk

I am betting out about half of the time, depending on my table image, if I have been splashing about a bet out at this point is asking to be raised, if I have been showing down winners I bet out, if I get raised in that case and he doesnt have me beat I say nice hand.

The other half of the time I am checking and calling a reasonable bet based on my read of the player making it, I know this is leaving you open to hard decisions but it also allows you the opportunity to bluff a scare card on later streets. If I call a pot bet and check the turn then my opponent puts in another pot bet I will give him the credit for a hand most of the time because after being called on the flop most players wont push a bare eight too hatd on the turn and will look to get to show it down.

If I check call a flop bet and the turn goes check check and no scare card falls on the river I nearly allways value bet for haf the pot value.

The main thing is that it is better to dump the winning hand for cheap than check raise or reraise for most of your chips with what may well be a loser out of position.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Check/call is fine here ... really. Your hand is not that strong, you dont have to use up all your stack to protect your weak hand.

Agreed, I kinda jumped the gun on my response. Keeping the pot small in this hand is far better than creating a big one that will give you no FE on later streets.

AmarilloFats

What MrpillowTalk said.
Also Ianmc when the pot is HU the then maybe an aggressive player will raise your lead with AK but with 3 way action...PAH fair balls to him..
Look for a happy medium between pot management and free cards.
If villain Cont bets every pot(and alot of good players do) then check call is fine...sure you give him a free card but he will usually give up on the turn..
U would feel silly to get stacked for 100BB with 99 here,,,,,,,under normal circumstances