Large Drawing Hand - Do you Call?

Blured

Playing a 20+2 9 seated STT on PPP yesterday. Second Level, blinds at 30-60. Haven't been involved in any pots - so sitting with most of my starting stack. I get dealt QJd in mid position. Folded to me, I limp, everyone else folds, small blind completes and BB checks.

Board comes 9d 10d 2h.

Checked to me, I make it 150. SB then pushes for 1900 more. I have no notes on this guy. BB folds and its left to me. At this stage, I am thinking TPTK, a bigger flush draw, badly played overpair, two pair, set or straight draw.

Is this an instant call?

The C Kid

Yes. 100%.

Gholimoli

Blured wrote:

Playing a 20+2 9 seated STT on PPP yesterday. Second Level, blinds at 30-60. Haven't been involved in any pots - so sitting with most of my starting stack. I get dealt QJd in mid position. Folded to me, I limp, everyone else folds, small blind completes and BB checks.

Board comes 9d 10d 2h.

Checked to me, I make it 150. SB then pushes for 1900 more. I have no notes on this guy. BB folds and its left to me. At this stage, I am thinking TPTK, a bigger flush draw, badly played overpair, two pair, set or straight draw.

Is this an instant call?

i don’t think its an instant call. your more than fav against his range but yet behind in the hand at the moment. This is close and I would not blame any one for folding or calling here.im not exactly sure about the math but I think your something like 55/45 fav against TPTK here.

The C Kid

In the 22s, or any STT, this is a instant call for me everytime.

Culchie

The C Kid wrote:

In the 22s, or any STT, this is a instant call for me everytime.

Explain why C Kid

ianmc38

I was left in a similar situation in last nights 15k. I was about 9th out of the 40 players left in. I was dealt QhJh. UTG limped, i limped. Fodled around to the BB who checked. Now i immediately put UTG on a small PP, as i've detailed notes on his play and he always raises from UTG with AQ/AQ/TT-AA, whereas he limps from EP with 22-99.

Flop came ThKh8. According to my odds calculator if he had an underpair to the board, i was a slight favourite, so I called. he flipped over 33, and i missed my outs. He had me covered so i was dumped out. If i'd won I would have been chip leader.

Bad play by me? I still can't decide cos if i'd folded I still had 40xBB and was almost guaranteed to make the money, as well as still having plenty of power at my table where my steals were working nearly every time.

Ardent

Blured wrote:

Playing a 20+2 9 seated STT on PPP yesterday. Second Level, blinds at 30-60. Haven't been involved in any pots - so sitting with most of my starting stack. I get dealt QJd in mid position. Folded to me, I limp, everyone else folds, small blind completes and BB checks.

Board comes 9d 10d 2h.

Checked to me, I make it 150. SB then pushes for 1900 more. I have no notes on this guy. BB folds and its left to me. At this stage, I am thinking TPTK, a bigger flush draw, badly played overpair, two pair, set or straight draw.

Is this an instant call?

This type of thing annoys me with Tribeca players - a push all in of 1900 to win a mere 330.

Most likely this jackass has TPTK and you couldn't be faulted for calling but equally it's not a bad play to fold. (Imagine if this was the WSOP main event and this is your first hand - do you call and risk getting busted straight away for a nominal pot or do you wait for a better spot?)

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

I was left in a similar situation in last nights 15k. I was about 9th out of the 40 players left in. I was dealt QhJh. UTG limped, i limped. Fodled around to the BB who checked. Now i immediately put UTG on a small PP, as i've detailed notes on his play and he always raises from UTG with AQ/AQ/TT-AA, whereas he limps from EP with 22-99.

Flop came ThKh8. According to my odds calculator if he had an underpair to the board, i was a slight favourite, so I called. he flipped over 33, and i missed my outs. He had me covered so i was dumped out. If i'd won I would have been chip leader.

Bad play by me? I still can't decide cos if i'd folded I still had 40xBB and was almost guaranteed to make the money, as well as still having plenty of power at my table where my steals were working nearly every time.

i would deffo fold in this situation.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

i would deffo fold in this situation.

Yeah, i'm kinda thinking that now as well.

ntlbell

40XBB left??

Fold for me too.

The C Kid

Culchie wrote:

Explain why C Kid

The most important aspect of this scenario is STT. In a multi this is a different world.

In an online STT, with their blind structure and levels, I think its very hard to make a case against passing up marginal edges, let alone edges which are probably quite substantial as is often the case in this situation

Firstly you are far ahead of the normal 22s range for a player moving 1900 all-in into a 330 pot. He has a set here 0% of the time. His most likely holdings are weak top pair, two pair, flush draw, and straight draw. I'd group them in that order of probability too. Only against a higher flush draw are you a dog, and even then its 40/60 at worst.

Secondly in an STT the value of accumulating chips early is substantial, the blinds increase at such a pace, that the blinds alone soon become a valued percentage of your stack. The bigger your stack, the more pressure you can apply to the opponents. Therefore I'm not passing many edges, most alot more marginal than this, in an attempt to accumulate the chips that will give me the power to significantly increase my stack as the blinds increase.

If I fail to draw, then NH GG WP, and load up another.

Apologies if this in unstructured as I'm trying to type and multi-table.

Blured

Ardent wrote:

This type of thing annoys me with Tribeca players - a push all in of 1900 to win a mere 330.

Most likely this jackass has TPTK and you couldn't be faulted for calling but equally it's not a bad play to fold. (Imagine if this was the WSOP main event and this is your first hand - do you call and risk getting busted straight away for a nominal pot or do you wait for a better spot?)

I called. My thinking was, if I win this pot I will be able to run over the table. Not sure I would have made the call at the early stages of an MTT but I think in an STT you cant turn down these chances to double up.

He had AcAd. I turned a King and won the pot. He then berated me and went on a "Only on PPP would something like this happen" rant

jimbling

ianmc38 wrote:

I was left in a similar situation in last nights 15k. I was about 9th out of the 40 players left in. I was dealt QhJh. UTG limped, i limped. Fodled around to the BB who checked. Now i immediately put UTG on a small PP, as i've detailed notes on his play and he always raises from UTG with AQ/AQ/TT-AA, whereas he limps from EP with 22-99.

Flop came ThKh8. According to my odds calculator if he had an underpair to the board, i was a slight favourite, so I called. he flipped over 33, and i missed my outs. He had me covered so i was dumped out. If i'd won I would have been chip leader.

Bad play by me? I still can't decide cos if i'd folded I still had 40xBB and was almost guaranteed to make the money, as well as still having plenty of power at my table where my steals were working nearly every time.

hold on... let me get this straight... some guy raised ALL his chips, and he obviously had more than your 40*BB, from early position with 33 on a limped TK8 board???? jesus... whats this guys handle?

Gholimoli

The C Kid wrote:

The most important aspect of this scenario is STT. In a multi this is a different world.

In an online STT, with their blind structure and levels, I think its very hard to make a case against passing up marginal edges, let alone edges which are probably quite substantial as is often the case in this situation

Firstly you are far ahead of the normal 22s range for a player moving 1900 all-in into a 330 pot. He has a set here 0% of the time. His most likely holdings are weak top pair, two pair, flush draw, and straight draw. I'd group them in that order of probability too. Only against a higher flush draw are you a dog, and even then its 40/60 at worst.

Secondly in an STT the value of accumulating chips early is substantial, the blinds increase at such a pace, that the blinds alone soon become a valued percentage of your stack. The bigger your stack, the more pressure you can apply to the opponents. Therefore I'm not passing many edges, most alot more marginal than this, in an attempt to accumulate the chips that will give me the power to significantly increase my stack as the blinds increase.

If I fail to draw, then NH GG WP, and load up another.

Apologies if this in unstructured as I'm trying to type and multi-table.

There is almost 0% chance that you’re ahead of his range at the moment.
If you mean your fav against his range then that’s another story. You may be a fav against his holdings but again not by much. Remember you need to improve here. There are about you have 14-15 cards that improve your hand and 32-33 cards that don’t improve your hand.if your even 55/45 fav this means you go bust 45% of the time.
This certainly can not be an auto call is you put it.

Atlas_IRL

hard to say i would prob fold ur not winning much but if u dont hit ur outs ur gone...

better off staying in and trying to get in the money or winning on hands u know u will win pots...

The C Kid

Gholimoli wrote:

There is almost 0% chance that you’re ahead of his range at the moment.
If you mean your fav against his range then that’s another story. You may be a fav against his holdings but again not by much. Remember you need to improve here. There are about you have 14-15 cards that improve your hand and 32-33 cards that don’t improve your hand.if your even 55/45 fav this means you go bust 45% of the time.
This certainly can not be an auto call is you put it.

Apologies, you are correct. It should read favourite not ahead.

Gholi, I have watched you play with a fair bit of success recently but am amazed by the amount of posts that you make that refer to passing up to considerable edges.


Your percentages are wrong also, against TPTK you are around 65/35 to 70/30, suit dependant.

In an STT, this is auto-call for me.

This debate about "passing of edges" and "to flip or not to flip" has been done to death on internet forums recently, and well people are so firmly entrenched in their ways that its futile. Some people pass edges, some quite substantial, others don't. I know which camp I fall into, and I know which camp you fall into Gholi. Your record lately suggests that you have been doing something right, so I can't rubbish your method. We will have to agree to disagree.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I was left in a similar situation in last nights 15k. I was about 9th out of the 40 players left in. I was dealt QhJh. UTG limped, i limped. Fodled around to the BB who checked. Now i immediately put UTG on a small PP, as i've detailed notes on his play and he always raises from UTG with AQ/AQ/TT-AA, whereas he limps from EP with 22-99.

Flop came ThKh8. According to my odds calculator if he had an underpair to the board, i was a slight favourite, so I called. he flipped over 33, and i missed my outs. He had me covered so i was dumped out. If i'd won I would have been chip leader.

Bad play by me? I still can't decide cos if i'd folded I still had 40xBB and was almost guaranteed to make the money, as well as still having plenty of power at my table where my steals were working nearly every time.

He moved in with 33 on that board? He truly is a moron, you could just wait until you have a K or even a T against this guy.

Saying that, you are a big favourite Vs his hand - not just a slight one.

Gholimoli

The C Kid wrote:

Apologies, you are correct. It should read favourite not ahead.

Gholi, I have watched you play with a fair bit of success recently but am amazed by the amount of posts that you make that refer to passing up to considerable edges.


Your percentages are wrong also, against TPTK you are around 65/35 to 70/30, suit dependant.

In an STT, this is auto-call for me.

This debate about "passing of edges" and "to flip or not to flip" has been done to death on internet forums recently, and well people are so firmly entrenched in their ways that its futile. Some people pass edges, some quite substantial, others don't. I know which camp I fall into, and I know which camp you fall into Gholi. Your record lately suggests that you have been doing something right, so I can't rubbish your method. We will have to agree to disagree.

this from poker stvoe:

Your right my percentages were incorrect.
Here are the correct ones.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 46.0009 % 45.92% 00.08% { 99+, 22, ATs, T9s, T2s, 92s, ATo, T9o, T2o, 92o }
Hand 2: 53.9991 % 53.92% 00.08% { QdJd }

Taking the sets out his range (not that we should but just for argument sake) then it will look like something like this:


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 44.1255 % 44.03% 00.10% { JJ+, ATs, T9s, T2s, 92s, ATo, T9o, T2o, 92o }
Hand 2: 55.8745 % 55.78% 00.10% { QdJd }


Now you said my percentages were wrong. Can you tell me how they were wrong? And also can you tell me how 55/45 is a big edge when the blinds are still at the first level.
also i dont think giving up 55/45 edge is consirable at all considering i know i can do alot better later on using my skill.

Bandana boy

Both times you have to call
Ideally i would like to bet it but in STT you are not going to get too many chances as good as this

Ian M it was a very good call you are a massive favourite and that win would prob take you too top 3 finish

The C Kid

Gholimoli wrote:

im not exactly sure about the math but I think your something like 55/45 fav against TPTK here.

Thats where your percentages are wrong. Please read my posts more carefully before replying again.

Your percentages are wrong also, against TPTK you are around 65/35 to 70/30, suit dependant.


Its pretty clear don't you think.

Gholimoli

The C Kid wrote:

Thats where your percentages are wrong. Please read my posts more carefully before replying again.

Your percentages are wrong also, against TPTK you are around 65/35 to 70/30, suit dependant.


Its pretty clear don't you think.

thats a fair point which i missed in yours and my post .but can you please tell me where your massive edge that you cant pass comes from in this hand given the hand range for villain?

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

thats a fair point which i missed in yours and my post .but can you please tell me where your massive edge that you cant pass comes from in this hand given the hand range for villain?

70:30 is a massive edge.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

70:30 is a massive edge.

its not 70/30 its 55/45.
his push dosent mean TPTK it just puts TPTK in his range.
why are you just choosing one hand he could have from his range of hands and say "oh yeah 70:30 ,massive edge im calling."

The C Kid

Gholi, your range is far too tight.

This is not Rock McRocky from Granite, Stone County. This is a player moving 1900 into a 330 pot at the 22s. You are way ahead, percentage wise, of his range.

fuzzbox

Hehe - I hadnt read all that poker stove stuff when I responded, cos I jumped right to page 2.

This type of hand is a good illustration of how tourney and cash games can differ. I would tend to fold this in a tourney because its a high variance hand, and I have to CALL, but I would push it often if villain bet in order to try to acquire some fold equity.

In a cash game, I am often a money favourite in this spot, and I would almost never fold.

However - it is not incorrect to call - it is merely choosing to gamble.
It is a matter of sytle and taste as to whether you wish to gamble here.

The C Kid

fuzzbox wrote:

This type of hand is a good illustration of how tourney and cash games can differ.

This type of hand is a good illustration of how STTs and MTTs can differ.

Gholimoli

The C Kid wrote:

Gholi, your range is far too tight.

This is not Rock McRocky from Granite, Stone County. This is a player moving 1900 into a 330 pot at the 22s. You are way ahead, percentage wise, of his range.

apart from over pair,TPTK,set,two pair, higher flush draw with over cards, what else would he move in here with.
what makes you think because this is 22s that people don’t know how to play.
I think the truth is you see the str/flush draw and its too good looking for you to fold and then you talk your self into how its deffo a good decision to call.
im not saying folding is the right play. im saying that its a very close decision to make and far from the auto call that you suggested.
all your have to back up your argument is that this is 22s and his moving in into a 330 pot !!!

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

apart from over pair,TPTK,set,two pair, higher flush draw with over cards, what else would he move in here with.

Top pair no kicker, middle pair, bottom pair, underpair, flush draw with one overcard, flush draw with no overcard, overcards+gutshot, overcards+open ender, bare straight draw, smaller straight/flush draw, two overcards, one overcard, any two because he thought you were bluffing.

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

I think the truth is you see the str/flush draw and its too good looking for you to fold

I don't think it's an automatic call but yeah this pretty much sums it up for me.

The C Kid

Gholimoli wrote:

apart from over pair,TPTK,set,two pair, higher flush draw with over cards, what else would he move in here with.
what makes you think because this is 22s that people don’t know how to play.
I think the truth is you see the str/flush draw and its too good looking for you to fold and then you talk your self into how its deffo a good decision to call.
im not saying folding is the right play. im saying that its a very close decision to make and far from the auto call that you suggested.
all your have to back up your argument is that this is 22s and his moving in into a 330 pot !!!

Yawn.

Firstly your range is too tight. In this situation he could have TPAK, two pair, higher flush draw, lower flush draw, straight draw, and the Harrington Law of bluffing applies here also.

Secondly you are over-looking experience. Anyone who has played an adequate sample size of lower level STT will tell you this is an instant-call. When you play these games, you will realise that when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and acts like a duck, then 9/10 it is a duck.

Thirdly you are completely ignoring my second original point of the power of your stack, pre double compared to post double up. This is an 9 seater doubling up will give you 22% of the chips in play at this stage. It will also allow you to take even more marginal edges later on in the STT.

As I have said before this argument has been done to death. Even on here there has been much debate on the "coin-flip, small edges" debate. Trying to convince someone firmly entrenched in either camp of the other is futile.

By all means try to get your point across but don't resort to sad little comments about the cards looking pretty.

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

Top pair no kicker, middle pair, bottom pair, underpair, flush draw with one overcard, flush draw with no overcard, overcards+gutshot, overcards+open ender, bare straight draw, smaller straight/flush draw, two overcards, one overcard, any two because he thought you were bluffing.

your range here suggests villain cant play poker.it dosent suggest he is a bad player it suggests he can not play poker.what makes you think he cant play poker

Bp!

Blured wrote:

I called.
He had AcAd.

He derserves to broke here , another AA played horribly

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

your range here suggests villain cant play poker.it dosent suggest he is a bad player it suggests he can not play poker.what makes you think he cant play poker

If I was playing against you early in a sit and go I should be pushing a lot of these hands, expecting you to fold anything but a set.